Author Topic: The prefect model Railroad camera?  (Read 5849 times)

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AlkemScaleModels

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The prefect model Railroad camera?
« on: August 16, 2022, 12:40:06 AM »
+7
I recently bought a Canon R7 with the kit lens. It is an ideal camera for model railroad photography.  I did a detailed post on my blog about my review of it.

https://usmrr.blogspot.com/2022/08/the-perfect-camera-for-model-railroad.html

Bernard Kempinski
www.usmrr.blogspot.com

Cajonpassfan

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2022, 01:06:58 PM »
0
Thanks for the great writeup, Bernie. Sounds like a winner!
I wish I had waited a couple of years instead of getting my Olympus...
Otto K.

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2023, 12:48:18 PM »
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Hi Bernie,
Based on your recommendation, I bought the R7 kit.
I look forward to using it this summer.

freescopesdad

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2023, 11:43:03 AM »
+1
My perfect camera will have to remain my iPhone 12 on a tripod until I win the lottery. I am sure the Canon is an excellent choice and am a tad jealous, but then I think of the 6 new DCC/sound locomotives I can buy instead. But best of luck to you in your photo pursuits.  :)
Ron
Owner of the Chicago, Blue Island & Northern Illinois Railroad

wm3798

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2023, 05:53:15 PM »
+1
I have an old Canon S3 Power Shot that always served me well, but obviously, at only 6 mp and pushing 15 years old, it will need replacement should I get back into building anything worth shooting.

I'll be looking into the R7, as I like the "feel" of the Canon, and I'm sure the upgrades will take care of all the old work-arounds I came up with to wring good pictures like this out of the old S3.



Thanks for the write up.  Having a better camera might inspire some better work in the train room...

Lee

Rockin' It Old School

Lee Weldon www.wmrywesternlines.net

randgust

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2024, 12:07:34 PM »
+1
The issue I've had is finding digital cameras with sufficient depth of field.  I'm old enough to have shot everything down to pinholes, managed to get published in MR and Trains, and then kicking and screaming when to digital.

There was one general 'technology hole' that was transitional between film and digital.   First I had a Kodak DC240, would only go to "5.6".   Then I stumbled onto my company's work cameras, Olympus C4000 zooms, wow, "F11".   Mind you, that a virtual f-stop, not a physical one.

They have three features I've become relatively addicted to:

1)  A depth of field that can be cranked down to "f11".   Add light and a tripod.  I have.  Exposures will run long, often over a second.
2)  Wide-angle, Macro and telephoto settings, add wide angle to F11 and watch your depth of field problem disappear.
3)  Shoot natively in lower resolution instead of having to constantly convert to a smaller .JPG size later.   I can shoot higher, but if I'm shooting for instruction sheets or just posting here it's normally 1024x768 and my file size is manageable.

I've worn out two of them now, the control buttons and motors finally give up the ghost.    Beat them to death.

I'd love to find something that matches that, but I can still buy another C4000 - NEW, in the box - for $50 - off of Ebay.

And yes I have an Iphone with a nice camera on it that handles color balance and lighting nicely, but unless I master one of the post-production packages that does the stacking, the depth of field is far, far, far worse than what the Olympus does in one easy shot.   I still can't master the repeat shots for stacking.

Welcome comments or alternatives, but every current digital camera I've looked at can't hit that high f-stop equivalent.

Scottl

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2024, 12:18:18 PM »
0
Taking the photos and stacking is very easy.  It is a little more effort than a single shot, but IMO focus stacking is superior to the best I could obtain with an SLR and prime lens.  A recent thread: https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=58692.0

peteski

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2024, 08:50:10 AM »
+1
Maximizing DOF through small aperture is so 20th Century.  Focus stacking is the thing to use in the 21st Century.  Yes, there is a current discussion about it.

I have been using Helicon Focus stacking software for over a decade, so even with my Nikon CoolPix 8700 (which only stops down to F8) I can get basically infinite DOF.  It was (and is a game-changer).

Maybe cameras with really small diameter lenses (like smart phones), even with relatively large lens openings can still achieve relatively good DOF even with unmodified photos.  While I don't have a technical explanation, I think the small lens diameter has a role in it.
. . . 42 . . .

robert3985

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2024, 07:00:55 PM »
+3
For all of my model railroad photography, I've been using my smartphone exclusively for about five years.  I rarely break out my Nikon DSLR any longer.

I understand that at least part of my "givens and druthers" for the "perfect" model railroad camera are due to my model railroad endeavors being only in 1/160th scale, not 1/4" scale as is Bernie's @AlkemScaleModels  fabulous Civil War layout, which shows that "perfect" is not an absolute, but dependent on different needs and/or desires of the individual.

There are two main problems with model railroad photography (1) - Depth of Field (DOF) and (2) - Camera Lens Position.  Since the small scale of N-scale magnifies both of these problems, IMO maybe there's a different solution than a full-sized DSLR, and here is a further discussion of my preference.

Although my Nikon DSLR takes marvelously sharp photos and I can mount whatever lens I need on it for either panoramic or close-up photos, I am not enlarging any of my photos to billboard size, nor do I print hardly any of them for framing and display on my wall...or anywhere else.  I look at them on my computer monitor if I want/need to closely examine them, but most of the time I'm looking at them on my smartphone's screen, or sending them to friends/customers to illustrate various aspects of model railroading.

So, I don't "need" my DSLR any longer to take model railroad photos, because my Android smartphone fulfills ALL of my model railroad photo needs, with the addition of a couple of apps (programs).

Like @peteski , to control my photography's DOF, I've been using Helicon Focus for over a decade to achieve basically infinite DOF for my stationary model railroad photo compositions.

Since focus stacking requires several (or many) photos taken from exactly the same position, the same exposure, the same zoom setting but allowing manipulation of where the camera's lens is focused without moving the camera or accidentally changing position, exposure or zoom while taking multiple photos, being able to securely immobilize the camera, while allowing access to its controls is absolutely necessary.  This is easier to do with a DSLR using a sturdy tripod and a remote camera release, with the lens sticking out there making it easy to manipulate the focus mechanism. 

However, using a smart phone is a bit more difficult since touching the phone is necessary to fiddle with exposure, zoom and focus settings, when there's no tripod mount on any smartphone body that I am aware of, although several work-arounds are available, but are usually fairly rudimentary and cumbersome to use.

So, what to do??  The quality of smartphone photos is plenty good for viewing on a computer monitor or big-screen TV nowadays, or even for making medium size enlargements for framing and display...but immobilizing your smartphone is not easy to do, especially allowing access to the touch screen to alter your focus points in multiple photos.

The solution is a smartphone app that allows extremely quick, multiple exposures that also allows setting intermediate focus distances between chosen "near" and "far" starting and ending focus points. Since a smartphone's shutter is electronic, ultra fast multiple photos are possible meaning hand-holding your smartphone should be possible since the app is choosing "near" and "far" starting and ending focus points, and you've been able to set the number of intermediate focus points, which the app then automatically and very quickly chooses and exposes.

The app that meets all of these requirements (and many more) is called "Open Camera" and is available only for Android OS phones unfortunately.  There may be focus-stacking apps available for iOS phones, but I don't know since my phone is an Android OS, which I chose specifically so that I could use Open Camera to facilitate post-camera focus stacking.

Smartphones, because of their small size (compared to even the smallest DSLR), allow many more photo opportunities than a DSLR, and Open Camera on your Android phone makes it very easy to compose and quickly expose your shot, without having to set up, position, attach your phone, to a small tripod.

Are some smartphones more suitable for model railroad photography than others??  Yes.  For myself, the first thing is to only consider Android OS smartphones.  The second thing is to ensure that the center of the standard lens (usually called the "wide" lens) on your smartphone is as close to an N-scale 6' from the phone's edge as possible, or less. This means that you can quite easily take model railroad photos from close to where an N-scale human would hold a camera at trackside. 

6' in N-scale is 0.450" (11.43mm).

Smartphones with their main camera lens closer to the center of their phone body, even though their cameras may be excellent, won't be as good for model railroad photography as a smartphone with its main camera lens much closer to the edge of the phone.

The Android OS smartphone with the very best-rated still-camera, with the standard (wide) rear-facing camera lens center just about correctly positioned near the edge of the phone body (I don't have one in my possession to measure), is the Google Pixel 9 Pro XL...and will be what I buy to replace my old 2017 Pixel 2 XL (which I love, but the battery is dying).  The Google Pixel 9 Pro is slightly smaller, but has the same cameras, and would also be an excellent model railroad camera at a lower price.

Focus stacking is not perfect, and will often generate artifacts when combining multiple photographs.  However, in most instances, these artifacts can be minimized or eliminated, and I am 100% happy with Helicon Focus Pro...which I bought before they introduced their subscription service. 

Here are some photos taken with my smartphone, the Open Camera app, using Helicon Focus Pro to put the photos together...

Photo (1) - Near-focus start photo taken using the Open Camera app in my smartphone.  Note this nearest photo is focused on the woodgrain of the display board:



Photo (2) - Far-focus end photo taken using the Open Camera app in my smartphone. Note this most distant photo is focused slightly further than the rear of the caboose:


I chose (if I remember correctly) seven equal focus points between the near-focus and far-focus points.  Total exposure time was less than a quarter of a second for all 9 photos...totally hand-held.

Photo (3) - All 9 photos stacked, everything in focus, out-of-focus blur completely removed, zero artifacts...all processed on my desktop with Helicon Focus Pro:



Photo (4) - Another focus-stacked photo that's been stacked with Helicon Focus Pro, then shopped with Photoshop.  Frankly, this photo could not have been accomplished without focus-stacking:


In the previous photo at Echo Curve, the position of the smartphone camera lens made the low angle possible.  I would have had to turn my DSLR upside down to even distantly approach that same low angle, or mounted the camera on my tripod and used my 18mm/200mm zoom to get "close" enough to the subject matter.

Another big advantage of Helicon Focus is to control what is in focus and what is out of focus.  It's not always wanted to have infinite focus in a photo.  Sometimes you might want to isolate the subject by making the more distant objects in the photo really blurry and out of focus.  This is easily accomplished with Helicon Focus (and maybe other apps) simply by not including the distant photos that are in-focus into the stack you're combining.

Photo (5) - Focus manipulation emphasizing the main subject by not including the distant in-focus photos into the stack allowing more distant objects to remain out-of-focus:


Photo (6) - A panoramic photo of Echo with the total length being over 9 feet taken with my Google Pixel 2 XL with Open Camera, combined with Helicon Focus and shopped with Photoshop:


In my years of being a professional photographer, taking close-ups of my model work, winning the 1994 Model Railroader photo contest, having model railroad photos published in various model railroading magazines over the years...I am using my DSLR less and less.  Frankly, I rarely use it for model railroad photography any more, and, in my opinion, the "perfect" camera for model railroad photography is the Google Pixel 9 Pro, or the slightly larger Google Pixel 9 Pro XL, either loaded with the Open Camera app, files stacked in Helicon Focus Pro.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore


« Last Edit: November 05, 2024, 09:22:33 PM by robert3985 »

Scottl

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2024, 07:12:50 PM »
+1
Thanks for your post @robert3985.  That last photo in your post is fantastic, what a scene!

I gave away my DSLR to the daughter of a friend with an interest in photography.  Like you, it did not serve me for layout photography, and even out taking landscapes and other routine photography, my phone is superior.  I've been using Open Camera for Android as well. 

All I would add to your detailed post is that you can purchase inexpensive small tripods for phones that can be positioned on the layout and the phone mounting bracket can be removed and attached to a conventional tall tripod as well.  I spent $9 on my phone tripod and it is a a great tool for layout photography.

peteski

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2024, 07:54:23 PM »
+1
With Helicon Focus (for which I also purchased a lifetime license before  the started subscription model), does not require the camera be still for all the photos in the stack.  It corrects for any small misalignment automatically.

Here's an example of what Helicon Focus can do with photos taken with my old Nikon CoolPix 8700 camera.  It is one of those "prosumer" cameras that is not a DSLR, but has excellent macro capability. But the aperture only steps down to f8.


This is Kato N scale GG1. This photo was one of the photos in the stack. This one was focused on the nose area.  Both the loco's front (coupler) and what is behind the nose are out of focus.  I don't recall how many photos were in the stack. Probably about 7.


And the processed stack.  The results speak for themselves. I could have done better with more photos in the stack (the coupler is still not in perfect focus), but this still shows what can be accomplished.

. . . 42 . . .

robert3985

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2024, 08:58:28 PM »
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With Helicon Focus (for which I also purchased a lifetime license before  the started subscription model), does not require the camera be still for all the photos in the stack.  It corrects for any small misalignment automatically.

@peteski - Peter, Yes, I'm aware that HF compensates for "small" misalignments...the operative word being "small". How small?  And how would that be defined? (rhetorical questions)

Since changing the focus point by touching and dragging on the screen of a smartphone is, at best, extremely awkward, the misalignments that will happen with a hand-held smartphone will most likely be too large for HF to compensate for...at least that's been my experience.

The Open Camera app alleviates this problem by requiring focus specifications and shutter speed to be input before the shutter is released and compressing the total multiple frame "take" time to a fraction of a second, allowing the photographer to have a good, steady grip on the phone's body, minimizing misalignments, and obviating the need for a small tripod or other holding device.

Many excellent quality DSLR lenses and lenses on non-DSLRs, change their magnification according to the distance they're focused at.  This phenomenon is called "Focus Breathing" so even lenses on tripod mounted cameras may change their alignments slightly when focused at different distances, even though the camera body is solidly socked down...which, I assume, is why HF made sure that it would compensate for minor misalignments and composition changes due to this common lens eccentricity.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Chris333

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2024, 09:04:46 PM »
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Does there happen to be a video or something that shows step by step how to do this with Open Camera app?  I have it on my phone, but have no idea how to use it.

Scottl

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2024, 09:45:21 PM »
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Set it to Focus bracketing, choose 10 pictures and put it on timer with 5 or 10 seconds.  Mount it to a tripod. Take the 10 pictures, then upload to Helicon or another program to stack.  My thread above has a link to a free online stacker that works well. After the first time it is easy.

robert3985

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Re: The prefect model Railroad camera?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2024, 09:48:34 PM »
+1
Does there happen to be a video or something that shows step by step how to do this with Open Camera app?  I have it on my phone, but have no idea how to use it.

Here are links to instructions:  https://opencamera.sourceforge.io/help.html

Google "open camera app tutorial" for video tutorials for various features.  I haven't waded through these yet, so I can't say for certain if any of them actually instruct on how to use what Open Camera calls "Focus Bracketing".

Good luck!!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore