Author Topic: New Kato motor  (Read 2322 times)

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peteski

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2021, 03:55:34 AM »
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When the motor is available as a spare part, maybe we can get @mmagliaro to run some performance tests on it. I would love to see how it compares to Kato's (or any manufacturer's) coreless motors. Those exhibit no cogging, and have pretty high torque.  I also understand that this motor is designed to be a direct replacement for the regular 5-pole straight-wound Kato motors, where coreless motor conversions require modifications of the mechanisms.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2021, 08:24:49 PM by peteski »
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mmagliaro

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2021, 05:41:38 PM »
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When the motor is available as a spare part, maybe we can get @mmagliaro to run some performance tests on it. I would love to see how it compares to Kato's (or any manufacturer's) coreless motors. Those have exhibit no cogging, and have pretty high torque.  I also understand that this motor is designed to be a direct replacement for the regular 5-pole straight-wound Kato motors, where coreless motor conversions require modifications of the mechanisms.

Ever since this thread started, I've been jonesing to get my hands on these to see what they can do.  I have to say that after seeing
the 8mm and 10mm Faulhabers and Maxons, and then those tiny 6-pole Minebea 10mm motors you found, Peteski, I'll be very curious to see how good these Kato motors really are.  And yes, form factor could be huge.  If it's drop-in size for existing Kato motors, that means almost any Kato or Atlas diesel could be souped-up with a "drop-in" and that's huge.

peteski

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2021, 08:26:39 PM »
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Yes, those tiny Mineba 6-pole motors are quite amazing!  Too bad they are not designed for 12V (although we have ways to run them in N scale locos.
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Chris333

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2021, 10:42:15 AM »
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This seems to suggest the motor needs to be stuck to a large hunk of metal to get any torque out of it.
http://blog.morii.jp/article/189173040.html

peteski

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2021, 04:43:44 PM »
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Ferrous or non-ferrous metal? 

But seriously, I suspect that it is a translation error. It wouldn't make sense that a motor would need anything externally to make it work.  The photos clearly show the chunky iron armature under the windings, and the magnets in the frame.
The text probably states that due to the chunky armature, there is lots of torque.  The photos also appear to show that Kato uses those super-strong rare-earth magnets which they used in their smaller motor in GS4.  That will also play role in  maximizing the torque.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 04:52:39 PM by peteski »
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Chris333

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2021, 05:38:08 PM »
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There is a 2nd and 3rd page to the link above. It looks like he added a ring of "iron" around the motor.

http://mory.sakura.ne.jp/sblo_files/moriiyoshihiro/image/E5A496E383A8E383BCE382AFE4BB98.jpg

peteski

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2021, 07:40:35 PM »
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There is a 2nd and 3rd page to the link above. It looks like he added a ring of "iron" around the motor.

http://mory.sakura.ne.jp/sblo_files/moriiyoshihiro/image/E5A496E383A8E383BCE382AFE4BB98.jpg

I guess I didn't venture far enough.  That will concentrate the magnetic field (like in can motors), so in that case I can see how that will improve the torque.
That is a pretty meaty ring of iron!  Unless the stock  motor has really low torque, it seems to be a bit of an overkill for an average N scale loco.  But he gets an "A" for effort.  I can't imagine that Kato would design something which required a modification for making it usable.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 07:43:14 PM by peteski »
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daniel_leavitt2000

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2021, 08:02:06 PM »
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Some ideas that may or not be correct:
1. The Wire coils are much closer to the magnet, which may improve torque (not requiring a metal armature to transmit that magnetic field to the magnets).
2. There looks to be more coils with finer wire, so maybe a lower speed motor?
3. The "poles" of the coils appear to be split into subgroups. So 10 magnetic poles? This would not work unless they use an offset communicator. Where it would activate 2 poles a time: 1-4, 2-5, 3-7, etcetera.  With one closer to a magnet than the other, you get a hi-low attraction as the poles pass the magnet and this could reduce cogging quite a bit. It could also REALLY reduce top end speed.
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peteski

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2021, 08:10:14 PM »
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In one of the photos which shows the commutator, it looks like it only has 3 segments.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 08:26:22 PM by peteski »
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mike_lawyer

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2021, 10:07:18 AM »
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Any information on the dimensions of the new motor?  I would love it if it was a drop-in replacement for Kato Mikados. 

peteski

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2021, 03:54:03 PM »
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Any information on the dimensions of the new motor?  I would love it if it was a drop-in replacement for Kato Mikados.

Mike, reply #11 in this thread gives you info on the size: It's a drop in replacement for the GM3 motor, so you can upgrade older models.
For more info see that post.

GM3 unfortunately is the smaller version of the GM5 motor that is used in majority or Kato American prototype locos.

GM3 is the motor that Kato used in the American GS4 steam loco, and also in the NW2 switcher, so drop-in replacements for American prototype are limited.
But if that motor is as good as the hype, since it is smaller than GM5, it could be retrofitted into locos that use GM5 motors.

I also suspect that if this new motor is successful, Kato will also make a version replacing GS5 motors.
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brill27mcb

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2021, 04:17:25 PM »
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More info on the new Kato slotless motor:
https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/4-kato-new-releases/?do=findComment&comment=232389

How's your Japanese? Note that the Kato compatibility list linked to mostly lists Japanese and some European models and has 3 sections of compatibility levels, the third being "not compatible." Kato is taking reservations now, so it should be forthcoming in the near future with part number 11-503-A.

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Mark5

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2021, 04:57:00 PM »
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GM3 is the motor that Kato used in the American GS4 steam loco, and also in the NW2 switcher, so drop-in replacements for American prototype are limited.

Hmm, if so this new motor could push me over the edge to get the Kato GS4. Always loved that loco (the real one) but that 3 pole motor in the Kato model kept me from buying (yes, I have run one).

Mark

peteski

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Re: New Kato motor
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2021, 10:01:04 PM »
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Hmm, if so this new motor could push me over the edge to get the Kato GS4. Always loved that loco (the real one) but that 3 pole motor in the Kato model kept me from buying (yes, I have run one).

Mark

Mark, what is the problem with that motor?  Yes, 3-poles, but it is the only skew-wound motor Kato uses in American-proto locos, with very strong rare-earth magnets, while the 5-pole motors utilize standard ceramic magnets, and are straight-wound.

With skew-wound 3 poles there should not be any appreciable cogging, and with the strong magnets, there should be ample torque.  I also really don't see that much difference between any current 3- and 5-pole hobby motors.  Yes, in the early days of N scale, there were plenty of sub-par (by today's standards) 3-pole motors, but I don't believe that this is the case anymore.  I seem to recall that even our esteemed N scale motor expert, Victor Miranda conceded that a good skew-wound 3-poler performs as well as a 5-pole motor.  I agree.
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