Author Topic: MTL September 2021 releases  (Read 2587 times)

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Mark5

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2021, 04:23:32 PM »
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Howdy.

Maybe you can help us out.  I have searched high and low, attempted to contact the GM&O historical society with no luck and exhausted all my resources.  Do you or anyone have a picture of a standard heavyweight observation/business car in the two tone red scheme?   All I can find are the green ones. Did those run with the red cars or where they later?  Any help would be appreciated.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Late in the game, not sure if this helps, but ...

Here's the "Chicago" (#3040) in two tone red in 1968: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1098917

Mark

MTLJoe

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2021, 04:31:48 PM »
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So, would the Chicago have run with it's vestibule in the red scheme?   ...  Or is just marking out Observation Chicago be good enough?

bbussey

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2021, 04:44:31 PM »
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So, would the Chicago have run with it's vestibule in the red scheme?   ...  Or is just marking out Observation Chicago be good enough?

The better question would be: when was the observation platform enclosed?  Because based on the passage above, it appears it was an open-platform observation when it started with the C&A and was enclosed at some point before the end of its service life with GM&O.  The RivaRossi model clearly shows C&A reporting marks in the corners of the letterboard.
Bryan Busséy
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learmoia

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2021, 04:44:55 PM »
+1
So, would the Chicago have run with it's vestibule in the red scheme?   ...  Or is just marking out Observation Chicago be good enough?

Odd source... but I found this with a bit of Googling..
At the 00:40 mark, there is a photo of GMO 390 - Riveted side observation with round roof, and looks like 2 tone scheme..

https://hawkinsrails.net/mainlines/gmo/gmo_stock_pass.htm
I guess it's technically a motorcar (doodlebug?) trailer according to this site.

How 'bout a 2 tone Combine RPO Observation?  :trollface:


« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 04:48:40 PM by learmoia »
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bbussey

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2021, 04:50:46 PM »
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It also sounds as if two of the paired-window coaches should be swapped out for a diner and parlor, regardless of era.
Bryan Busséy
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thomasjmdavis

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2021, 05:24:20 PM »
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Howdy.

Maybe you can help us out.  I have searched high and low, attempted to contact the GM&O historical society with no luck and exhausted all my resources.  Do you or anyone have a picture of a standard heavyweight observation/business car in the two tone red scheme?   All I can find are the green ones. Did those run with the red cars or where they later?  Any help would be appreciated.

Joe
Joe,
Sorry, I cannot come up with a business car photo in the "two tone red" scheme (but I do think the dark green with pinstripes is a classy look). The popularity of #50 in the "Tequila Express" tourist paint scheme wrecks internet searches due to the 25000 photos of it all being on the web, which makes the 35 photos of the other business cars nearly impossible to find in any paint scheme.  And for whatever reason, my books on Chicago passenger trains only show GM&O trains from the front.

 On our late friend Jerry Laboda's site there are photos of GM&O coaches converted from parlor cars (3096-99) http://rr-fallenflags.org/gmo/gmo-co3097jpa.jpg . And  12-1 sleepers renumbered as coaches 2201-05 (could well be more, but pretty sure of at least those). This is black and white- but looks like it is probably 2 tone-
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3271322

There were some doodlebug trailers in the 390 series that had observation platforms, but don't look much like business cars http://hawkinsrails.net/mainlines/gmo/gmo_stock_pass.htm

@nickelplate759
Observations 3040 and 3041 (which become Chicago and Mobile, maybe for the second time, when rebuilt) are listed in the 1954 ORPTE as 87 feet long- which leads me to wonder if they might actually be the same cars as the "Chicago" of 1924. "90 feet" would only be a slight exaggeration, and any good railroad PR department would not have shied away from a slight exaggeration.  Since the 1954 ORPTE still lists them as type "PO" (passenger-observation) and the inside dimension as under 75', I am led to think that as of whatever date GM&O submitted their report, the cars still had observation platforms.  The "buffer" and vestibule at one end would only account for about 5-6 feet of the difference between inside and outside dimensions, but add 6 feet of platform, and it works out.
Tom D.

If you don't know what it is, don't throw it out.

thomasjmdavis

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2021, 03:48:48 PM »
+1
Those interested in business cars might want to take a look at this nmra presentation-
http://www.pcrnmra.org/pcr/clinics/Hobbs-BusinessCars.pdf

@MTLJoe - You might want to get hold of the author of that presentation, Paul Hobbs, who seems to have access to a lot of info and photos on business cars.  Might not help with the current project, but hopefully MTL has a lot of business cars in its future.
Tom D.

If you don't know what it is, don't throw it out.

gbcaboose

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2021, 05:05:27 PM »
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In James Kinkaid's Color Guide to IC and GM&O Freight and Passenger Equipment it states that 'Chicago' was one of two observation cars built by Pullman in 1924 for Alton Limited service as the Chicago and Alton's 680. (Sister 681 was named St. Louis, then as GM&O 3041, 'Mobile'.) By the time on this photograph (that was previously posted) on September 5, 1953, the rear platform had been enclosed and end diaphragm added for mid-train use. Observation 'Chicago' had seating for 39 passengers and would remain on the roster until the mass retirement of passenger cars by the GM&O in September 1969.

Mike

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2021, 05:57:26 PM »
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I checked my GM&O photo files and have not come across any business cars in red and maroon... only Pullman green. There were several motor car trailers in red and maroon, including the 390 posted above, but these are quite a bit different than heavyweight observation cars. The 390 was built in 1930 as part of New Orleans Great Northern's "St Tammany Special". GM&O did have a few 12-1 and 10-1-2 sleepers that would be good candidates for this set. Plan 3585A cars "Lake Melville" and "Lake Selby" lasted into the 1960's in red and maroon, with "Lake Selby" being converted into coach 2207 in August 1961. Three plan 3585 10-1-2's "Lake Vista", "Lake Wilson" and "Lake Pearl" were all sold in December 1948. Plan 3410 12-1 sleepers included "McCall" and "McCaulley", both of which were rebuilt into coaches in August 1956 and Dec 1955. Better options would be plan 3410A 12-1's "Orange State" "Trinity" and "East Lexington" with all 3 being rebuilt into coaches in 1960-61. Even after conversion to coaches, the exteriors remained mostly the same.

One thing to remember with GM&O, is that the two ends of the railroad were quite different. The former Alton trackage north of St Louis was mostly EMD, with passenger trains being operated up to Amtrak behind E7s, one E8, and passenger f-units. South of St Louis was mostly Alco (3 PAs and 3 DL105s, and 2 Baldwin DR 6-4-2000s) with passenger service ending in late 1958.  The south end also had the unique "Rebel" trainsets between St Louis and New Orleans. Both ends of the railroad had several motor car runs at various times, too.

I'll be glad to help with any GM&O info I have. If I don't know, I can put you in touch with those that do. It's one of my top railroads, and I look forward to the heavyweight set being discussed.

Tony Howe

MTLJoe

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2021, 11:57:36 AM »
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Thank you for the information...good stuff here.  So...everyone has nibbled around the issue...would it then be ok to offer one of the Green Observation/Business cars with the set we are pre-ordering?

Thanks

Joe



I checked my GM&O photo files and have not come across any business cars in red and maroon... only Pullman green. There were several motor car trailers in red and maroon, including the 390 posted above, but these are quite a bit different than heavyweight observation cars. The 390 was built in 1930 as part of New Orleans Great Northern's "St Tammany Special". GM&O did have a few 12-1 and 10-1-2 sleepers that would be good candidates for this set. Plan 3585A cars "Lake Melville" and "Lake Selby" lasted into the 1960's in red and maroon, with "Lake Selby" being converted into coach 2207 in August 1961. Three plan 3585 10-1-2's "Lake Vista", "Lake Wilson" and "Lake Pearl" were all sold in December 1948. Plan 3410 12-1 sleepers included "McCall" and "McCaulley", both of which were rebuilt into coaches in August 1956 and Dec 1955. Better options would be plan 3410A 12-1's "Orange State" "Trinity" and "East Lexington" with all 3 being rebuilt into coaches in 1960-61. Even after conversion to coaches, the exteriors remained mostly the same.

One thing to remember with GM&O, is that the two ends of the railroad were quite different. The former Alton trackage north of St Louis was mostly EMD, with passenger trains being operated up to Amtrak behind E7s, one E8, and passenger f-units. South of St Louis was mostly Alco (3 PAs and 3 DL105s, and 2 Baldwin DR 6-4-2000s) with passenger service ending in late 1958.  The south end also had the unique "Rebel" trainsets between St Louis and New Orleans. Both ends of the railroad had several motor car runs at various times, too.

I'll be glad to help with any GM&O info I have. If I don't know, I can put you in touch with those that do. It's one of my top railroads, and I look forward to the heavyweight set being discussed.

Tony Howe

thomasjmdavis

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2021, 04:11:05 PM »
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Thank you for the information...good stuff here.  So...everyone has nibbled around the issue...would it then be ok to offer one of the Green Observation/Business cars with the set we are pre-ordering?

Thanks

Joe

I know I don't speak for everybody, but I am MUCH more likely to buy any car (or set, or runner pack) that is accurately painted over one that is incorrectly painted to "match".  It would save me having to strip the inaccurate color off and repaint it. 

That said, you have my sympathies, as I am sure there are collectors and modelers who just can't abide a passenger train with cars in more than one scheme, regardless of prototype accuracy, or lack thereof.  So no matter what you do, you won't please everyone.
Tom D.

If you don't know what it is, don't throw it out.

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2021, 04:25:44 PM »
+2
I know I don't speak for everybody, but I am MUCH more likely to buy any car (or set, or runner pack) that is accurately painted over one that is incorrectly painted to "match".  It would save me having to strip the inaccurate color off and repaint it. 

That said, you have my sympathies, as I am sure there are collectors and modelers who just can't abide a passenger train with cars in more than one scheme, regardless of prototype accuracy, or lack thereof.  So no matter what you do, you won't please everyone.

Leave the wrong car out and offer both the "right" and "wrong" versions as singles the month the set comes out?

ncbqguy

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2021, 04:36:00 PM »
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By the time Rivarossi was paired with Arnold Rapido and distribution in the US became shaky Con-Cor was not involved.
Con-Cor US decorated and assembled Alton/GM&O cars and locomotives were before and after the Arnold Rivarossi production. During that time Con-Cor didn’t have access to any Rivarossi tooling which they owned (and for the most part never got back).
As to the Observations Chicago and St. Louis they were indeed unusually long at over 90 feet so it wasn’t advertising hype!
Charlie Vlk

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2021, 05:25:20 PM »
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I will buy it either way. I kind of like the idea of the green car cause it appears to be more accurate. The Cotton Belt Daylight train had a green diner car.  It is accurate color wise if I recall correctly and this would be very similar.
Brian

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learmoia

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Re: MTL September 2021 releases
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2021, 10:12:39 AM »
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Micro-Trains knows thier market, but would a passenger set that resembles the prototypes passenger consist be better recieved than...
A 'traditional' passenger consist in prototypical schemes but unlikely to operate together.

I guess you could release single cars to fill the gaps either way. 

As I type this email, I'm thinking that it makes more sense to put the 'one off' cars in the set, and release the add on coaches and sleepers as singles..

The set buyers buy the sets and maybe a single to go with it... and the GMO modelers but the set and multiple singles to fill out thier trains.

 

Dear Intermountain.. Please cancel your N scale 4785s.. That ship has already left China..... Twice... 

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