Passenger Car of curious provenance

[kiwi_al]

Spotted this for around $60.00 NZD for 2 - probably nearer $40.00 USD.
Was trying to figure out if they were based on the old Rivarossi / Concor types?

Take a peek 

[u18b]

http://www.spookshow.net/passenger/passenger.php

Looks like Rivarossi to me.

http://www.spookshow.net/passenger/rivheavy.html

[thomasjmdavis]

I don't think that is Rivarossi, although LOTS of folks pretend it is when selling on eBay.

That looks to me like the observation from a set produced by the Italian company Lima (trucks and roof are a giveaway), and marketed in the US by several companies beginning in the late 1960s, and most recently Model Power (which I believe moved production to China).  There were a coach, combine and observation.  The coach was loosely based on a P70, and the combine (mail-baggage-coach) on a PBM70.  I don't know if the observation has a prototype (I'll leave that to the PRR experts), as it appears to be the same as the P70 model, with one vestibule replaced with an observation platform.  It does resemble some parlor observation cars (edit: not PRR, but I do recall someone bashing a Lima model into a reasonable representation of one of the Wabash obs cars) built around the time of the First World War.

Probably biggest issue are the trucks, which are modeled on a PRR prototype, but it is an early 6 wheel design and not commonly (or ever?) used on a P70.  I will have to defer to others as to what it was used for.  Huge flanges.

The cars commonly go for a whole lot less than 40 US, although we are seeing a lot of vastly overpriced stuff on eBay.  I bought some new for $4 in the 1970s, and several since in large lots of passenger cars for a few dollars.

More info on Spookshow- http://www.spookshow.net/passenger/limaheavy.html

[peteski]

While not very clear (dark), judging by the trucks, those might be the Chinese Model Power knockoffs of Lima coaches (but then I don't remember if the observation car was ever offered  in that line).

[thomasjmdavis]

While not very clear (dark), judging by the trucks, those might be the Chinese Model Power knockoffs of Lima coaches (but then I don't remember if the observation car was ever offered  in that line).

One of my very early kitbashes, used one car each of original Lima and later China manufacture.  Luckily I was modeling an old broken down combine (which was a rebuild of a rebuild of a rebuild) because the detailing on the later version was no where near the quality of the original.

[John]

all my rivarosi cars have that imprinted on the bottom

[kiwi_al]

These are being sold on aliexpress so would be Chinese knockoffs of the Lima / Model Power ones. I just couldn't get my head around which one it was. It goes without saying that I'm not buying them when I can get secondhand ones off ebay a lot cheaper. I was surprised at how expensive they were - usually you expect things made in China to be on the cheaper side.

[altohorn25]

It's a Lima/Model Power car.

Biggest spotting features are the roof and the trucks.

Nate

[randgust]

OK, so it looks Lima to me, and I've heard of the China runs, but did they end up with the Lima tooling somehow?

I could understand that then.   

The old PMI/AHM/Lima cars are so ubiquitous that they show up about everywhere.  And the observation is basically the coach with a rear platform on it.   But the basic car is a PRR P70 design, and you can get steps, roofs, and 4-wheel trucks on Shapeways (keystonedesigns).   I just did two of them and converted junk-drawer relics to creditable cars.

The Rivarossi one is kind of screwball too, as that's a cafe-observation, not particularly common.   There's one still running on the Texas State Railroad, and yes, it has a kitchen, yes, it has diner tables, and an observation room.   Observations with lounges - common, same with sleeper rooms, but darn few Cafe-Obs.

[brokemoto]

The lettering font is also incorrect for the New York Central on all versions, Lima and MP.  MP did sell all three cars with this Two Tone Grey Scheme and the incorrect font.  I forget if Lima sold all three painted and lettered NYC, but I have seen a Lima coach that also had the incorrect font.

The Penn versions also have an incorrect font.  Penn did have the sans serif on lightweight cars, but if any HW ever had that font, I have yet to see a photograph of it.

I have seen a Reading Company Lima combine.  That font was correct.  Reading never had a car like that.

[Mark5]

The old PMI/AHM/Lima cars are so ubiquitous that they show up about everywhere. 

Initially, the PMI cars were still still made in Italy, I think this is true of the MP cars as well. At some point production was moved to China, and the China tooling is inferior in my opinion (comparing the China made side by side to the Italian versions, there are obvious differences). It's almost as if the Chinese made ones had new tooling made based on the old molds - in any case the new molds were not an improvement. 

[thomasjmdavis]

Let us not forget all the Lima/MP Santa Fe cars (completely fictitious) and the MP marketed Amtrak version.

A number of sets were marketed (still are, in fact) by various companies, custom painted and/or lettered for many railroads.  So there are probably some folks at home wondering what the fuss is about, since their Lima P70s are spot on correct for 1920 (or whatever date). 

There is at least one other railroad for which the combine is correct (assuming the trucks are replaced)- Virginian.  Page 141 of the book Railroad Post Office History has a photo of Virginian 151, which is identical (or as close as I can tell) to the PRR PBM70.  The windows in the passenger compartment appear to be covered in steel or plywood (not "plated over" as such- the outer window frames are still evident, but glass is covered).  The 1954 ORPTE lists the car as "mail-baggage" with a 15' mail compartment and 55' baggage area- so I assume the seats were removed and windows covered sometime prior to that date.  And this is the only car of the type that Virginian had, so I speculate that it was purchased second hand from Pennsy.  Trucks look more like the MTL diner truck than the Lima/MP truck.

Diagrams for all the Virginian varnish are here, the combine is page 23 using the index on the left of the linked page-
https://nwhistory.info/vgn_info/VGNPassengerCarDiagrams.pdf

The Virginian diagrams are like a catalog of N scale oddball cars.  You will find some "pretty close" prototypes for everyone's paired window coaches, Atlas 60' baggage and coach, the Lima combine, MTL business cars, even some of the ancient wood-brass-cardboard 1880s-1900s kits.

[Mark5]

And this is the only car of the type that Virginian had, so I speculate that it was purchased second hand from Pennsy.  Trucks look more like the MTL diner truck than the Lima/MP truck.

Interesting. On the very next page of the PDF you linked to, it states: Builder: ACF (Berwick, PA) April 1923. It also confirms that it was bought second hand - purchased April 1940, previous owner LS&I, who in turn purchased it from Pittsburgh & Western. I've never seen a photo of this VGN car (at least I can't remember at the moment  ) - I gotta look through my VGN books when I get a chance.

Of course, a no brainer for the MTL car would be one of the VGN BM-3 cars: https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=32854

Mark

[peteski]

Initially, the PMI cars were still still made in Italy, I think this is true of the MP cars as well. At some point production was moved to China, and the China tooling is inferior in my opinion (comparing the China made side by side to the Italian versions, there are obvious differences). It's almost as if the Chinese made ones had new tooling made based on the old molds - in any case the new molds were not an improvement. 

I agree. When I compare the original Lima and the Model Power Made in China cars (especially the trucks), they appear to be made from different molds. Too much difference to be just "cleaned up" original molds. I believe they were clones made using freshly made molds.

[kiwi_al]

I was kinda hoping I could use these for kitbashing but when I look at the price it might not be worth it. Would anyone here consider they would be an ok starting point for kitbashing say a PRR P70 with proper sides etc if price was no object? I guess using them as a core.