The new normal- burn baby, burn.

[Hawghead]

Hi Scott... 

Thanks so much for the long post!  Very informative and it does make me feel better.  Will cut and past it into an E-mail to my son.  The info on becoming an engineer is especially helpful, because that's his ultimate goal.  He does understand that it can/will be a very long road to get there.  At this point, he's still gung ho to walk that road, so we'll see.

My wife and I's biggest fear or concern (other than safety, which it appears the UP takes pretty seriously) is that he given enough shifts to pay his bills.  He's not afraid of hard work.  The job he left wasn't terrible, but management was awful and the patrons were pretty difficult.  He volunteered at the local Trolley museum, often doing dirty and difficult tasks.  He has no problem with getting dirty, or working long hours if it's something he loves.  He's also respectful and has a very good attitude, so based on what you've said, I think he'll do OK. 

Talked to him last night...  His training "section" (the guys in his class) was supposed to be ~15 guys.  Of that, only 7 accepted the job offer.  Of them, only 6 showed up.  One guy was just fired for no-showing on the second day, then being late back from lunch on the third.  He was shocked at how quickly the UP/trainer took action on this, it also further emphasized how important it is he tows the line.  Which he's good at.

Though many may not consider $100K-$120K "good money", I certainly do!  My wife and I would be ecstatic if/when he's making that kind of money years down the line.  That's nothing to sneeze at, no matter where you live!

I'll send you a PM with his name.  Thanks again Scott, your informative post made me feel better about his prospects.

Take care,

Jeff

Jeff,

One of the biggest problems is the drug test.  Many who try to hire on either bow out when they find out they have to pass a drug screening or are "dis-invited" when they fail the initial one.  Until your son is over his "derail" (60 days or 60 starts after he marks up, I can't remember which) he can be terminated pretty much without cause.  He also is prevented from having union protection until over his derail.  Once he is over his derail he needs to apply for union membership ASAP, also encourage him to attend as many union meetings he can at first to learn how the system works.

Scott

[peteski]

I agree, it's damn good money...  I'm in the Engineering field (non-degreed "Test Engineer") and 55yrs old and I don't make that with ~30yrs in that field. 

That said...  It's relative.  My wife works in the healthcare field, where non-MD specializations are paying $150K+ to start right out of school, at least in level 1 trauma centers.  Again, it's relative.

But $100-$120K per year is nothing to stick up your nose at, I'd take it and be very happy about it!

Jeff

I also agree that a 100-120k/yr. salary can buy lots of trains and other good toys. The cost of living part of course depends on where you live.  Hopefully the benefits (medical, dental, etc.) are also decent at the railroad.  Benefits are really in integral part of the salary.

[Hyperion]

It's very unfortunate that this is the case...  I wish I'd seen this post when it was first posted.  Why?

My oldest son just started training for the Union Pacific as a freight conductor.  The job and training are out in Portland Oregon.  We live in New England.  He started training on Sept 13th.  The week before, we packed up his car and he and I drove from NE out to Oregon.  Four days worth of driving.  It was a good experience and I can now cross "driving coast to coast" off the bucket list.  But it was a really long way to go for the salary he is going to be getting. 

The formal job offer came in three weeks before he had to report to training.  Not only that, the claimed salary for his job is "...you can expect to make about $52K per year...".  "Expect to make" is a whole lot different than "this is your starting salary".  On top of this, we'd read very poor reviews/horror stories about working for the UP, NS, CSX and other class one RR's, but our son decided he still wanted to give it a shot.  He's absolutely nuts about trains, has been from a very early age, and having not gone to trade school, and bailed out of college, there was not much else he could do.

But this is something we were afraid of...  All the bad reviews mentioned frequent furloughs.  All of us are concerned about having moved across country, find an apartment, etc, only to be furloughed a short time after leaving training.  Not to mention the treatment that RR workers have to endure.  If our son had better options, we would have talked him out of taking the job, but he doesn't and wanted to give it a shot.  Luckily he has a back up plan, which is to join the Air Force Reserves once he gets out of training, starts working and gets settled.  That way he at least has some income and something to fall back on if the RR job sucks as bad as we're afraid it will be.

Like I said...  I wish I'd read this before my son accepted the job offer.  The only hope I have here, is that they're so hard up for employees, that furloughs are few and far between.  Maybe the pay will get better, or maybe he'll move up the ranks to be an engineer (which is where he wants to end up).  Maybe he'll do it for a few years, get some good work experience, then move on to another job (RR or not).  We'll see...

JB

Jeff, most of my post was more specifically direct towards the treatment of exempts (management) versus the folks actually running/fixing trains and infrastructure (scheduled).     While things have changed quite a bit for Scheduled folks over the past 20 years, it hasn't been nearly as much as it has been for Exempts.  Union protection will do that for you.   Their biggest concern has been furlough -- and that's, unfortunately, likely to remain the case.

That is one "good" thing about the big cuts that have been done industry-wide the past few years -- there's just not that much room to cut anymore.  Hopefully that remains the case.  And, if it does happen again, hopefully he's far enough into the seniority roster at that point that it doesn't matter.

Yes, I complained, and yes there are objectively serious issues within the industry.  But, overall, I agree with everything Scott said.   There's a reason that I'm still with the railroad after 20 years and it's the same reason I'll be here likely my entire working career -- I love the job.

The work takes a 'certain kind' of individual to enjoy.   You need to be flexible to a degree that few expect or understand.  You need to just let ***** roll off your back and not take it as a personal affront if you get called in to work on Christmas Eve and it's -20 degrees out.  You need to be willing to accept that you're going to miss some things in your kids lives.   If your son is that type of individual who can carefully manage a healthy work-life balance amongst those expectations then, I'm sure that he will have a fulfilling career. 

It's absolutely not impossible.  Lots of people come to work for the railroad everyday and love it every day.  It's just not as easy thesedays to find people who are willing to make those compromises as it once was.  And, especially on the management side, to significantly increase those 'compromises' while simultaneously reducing compensation in big ways, has made big changes to the morale of the workforce in my 20 years.

We just got a new hire this week on my team.  It didn't take two days for him to ask if we always work the hours that we do.   He won't be around for long.  And I absolutely do not begrudge him for that.  Not one bit.  Twenty years ago, he would have gotten paid 80% more than the starting pay is today.   And his benefits would have been fully paid for and covered everything.   He would have had a pension, gotten stock options, and better bonuses.   He would have a clear career path towards middle management and a company that nurtured progression, rather than a middle management that's been reduced to a fraction and a senior management that's frequently hired from outside the company, obliterating hope of career progression.  You can get someone to overlook a lot of things when their compensation is that much higher and get them to put in the effort when there's a clear potential for future rewards.

[John]

The work takes a 'certain kind' of individual to enjoy.   You need to be flexible to a degree that few expect or understand.  You need to just let ***** roll off your back and not take it as a personal affront if you get called in to work on Christmas Eve and it's -20 degrees out.  You need to be willing to accept that you're going to miss some things in your kids lives.   

You could say this for a lot of jobs .. Military, Law Enforcement, Fire Service, Nursing, etc .. a lot of jobs are a calling that a lot of people who work in the ivory towers would never understand

[nickelplate759]

You could say this for a lot of jobs .. Military, Law Enforcement, Fire Service, Nursing, etc .. a lot of jobs are a calling that a lot of people who work in the ivory towers would never understand

For that matter - so is working in the "ivory tower".  I aspired to that once (to be an academic), but after a few years in that environment (in graduate school) decided it wasn't for me.

[John]

For that matter - so is working in the "ivory tower".  I aspired to that once (to be an academic), but after a few years in that environment (in graduate school) decided it wasn't for me.

I hear you .. I am adjunct faculty at University of Maryland Global Campus .. they have more "administrators" coming up with stupid ***** for us to do -- its all about process - very little actual teaching . but hey -- they pay me enough to buy trains ..   

[learmoia]

If the UP in Oregon doesn't work out, have him call Iowa Northern..

Pay is about the same actually a bit more I think, 250 mile short line.. sleep in the same bed after every shift... Its still railroad life.. but only halfway across the country.... we haven't been able to hire people (locally) fast enough..

[JeffB]

Jeff,

One of the biggest problems is the drug test.  Many who try to hire on either bow out when they find out they have to pass a drug screening or are "dis-invited" when they fail the initial one.  Until your son is over his "derail" (60 days or 60 starts after he marks up, I can't remember which) he can be terminated pretty much without cause.  He also is prevented from having union protection until over his derail.  Once he is over his derail he needs to apply for union membership ASAP, also encourage him to attend as many union meetings he can at first to learn how the system works.

Scott

OK thanks for the heads up Scott.  Makes sense on the drug test.  Fortunately, he's never done drugs (neither has his two brothers, at least as far as we know), which shows in that he passed the drug test. 

I've let him know about your comments and will send screen shots of your post for him to read. 

Thanks so much for the advice and comments, greatly appreciated!

Jeff

[JeffB]

Jeff, most of my post was more specifically direct towards the treatment of exempts (management) versus the folks actually running/fixing trains and infrastructure (scheduled).     While things have changed quite a bit for Scheduled folks over the past 20 years, it hasn't been nearly as much as it has been for Exempts.  Union protection will do that for you.   Their biggest concern has been furlough -- and that's, unfortunately, likely to remain the case.

Big snip...

Thanks for the clarification Mark... 

After getting through the training period and probationary period (derail), getting furloughed is his biggest concern.  He's fully aware of and has accepted the likelihood (inevitability) that he'll get a lot of (or mostly) odd/late night and holiday shifts for some time to come.  He understands that he has to "pay his dues" and he's still enthusiastic about the job.  Hopefully that lasts. 

Jeff

[JeffB]

If the UP in Oregon doesn't work out, have him call Iowa Northern..

Pay is about the same actually a bit more I think, 250 mile short line.. sleep in the same bed after every shift... Its still railroad life.. but only halfway across the country.... we haven't been able to hire people (locally) fast enough..

Thanks Ian...  I will definitely keep this in mind.

Jeff

[packers#1]

I hear you .. I am adjunct faculty at University of Maryland Global Campus .. they have more "administrators" coming up with stupid ***** for us to do -- its all about process - very little actual teaching . but hey -- they pay me enough to buy trains ..

Boy could I go on a rant about why they hire those admins and how useless they are but then we’re just gonna spiral into a bunch of mud…

I will say, it’s pretty much everywhere having these problems. The plant I work at is probably the largest single employer in the county (there’s another with two plants that’s probably larger in total but we’re nearly 350 people in one plant) that’s not realistically going anywhere for a while; we’re one of only three or four plants on the continent that can run High Volt cable and they’re sinking tens of millions into the plant for a new high voltage project. On top of being one of the largest plants in the company to begin with. It used to be, the only way to get a job there was to know someone and someone passed away or retired, and now we have a billboard on the road to the nearest large town and several signs out front saying we’re hiring. The old heads are just flabbergasted, but unfortunately that’s the way it works now. It’s also, while a hard job, not as bad as it used to be (7 days a week, 1 weekend off and two other weekends working 12’s to cover the other weekends off) but now a lot of lines are on 4 shifts so you get plenty of time off and starting pay is on par with the living wage for the simplest machines and most hourly folks are making $18-$22/hour. And we still are literally churning and burning through new hires, and the only solid employees to be found are from other plants in the area closing. And what’s really sad is that’s still WAYYYYY better than it was when I was living in Memphis. With the way the market and college are, anyone worth a damn goes to college or trade school and cashes in on their work ethic, as well they should. But more and more those career options are getting lifted to a new level, and the manufacturing and transportation jobs that require a grind are going to see difficulties attracting the caliber of employee they used to.

[Hyperion]

Great 'article' in Railway Age on this subject.  It's not so much an 'article' though, but rather a letter from a UP Engineer submitted to the STB as commentary for a series of hearings being held in a couple weeks on rail service issues.  Probably the best and fairest piece I've seen on the subject.  Which is not to say that it's not harsh.  It is.  Just realistic, IMO.

https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/the-game-has-changed/?RAchannel=news

And, fairly related, another article from Vice that's specifically about BNSF's new attendance policies for train crew and its effect on employees.   I have some issues with how some things are represented here, but not the overall point being made.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkp9m8/what-choice-do-i-have-freight-train-conductors-are-forced-to-work-tired-sick-and-stressed

[Englewood]

I wish he would of thrown in that Tier 2 is decreasing with time. It only goes up 30% of what Tier 1 does when cost of living adjustments are calculated. That nice retirement is going away.

[John]

Some of the ***** you railroaders put up withi is amazing .. And I thought the Navy was chicken ----

[Maletrain]

It looks to me like BNSF is intentionally creating a lack of employees, probably to help push acceptance of no-crew automated trains.

At least they won't be able to blame the employees when a train goes awry and destroys property of kills people.