Author Topic: The new normal- burn baby, burn.  (Read 3654 times)

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Point353

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2021, 01:20:21 AM »
+1
I am a middle school science teacher. I have the highest state test scores in my school. I literally could have another job at double the pay inside of a day or two.
What, then, is keeping you in your current job?

JeffB

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2021, 10:02:24 AM »
0
One other point not addressed in the article is the caliber of employee who does respond positively to the furlough callback.   Most of your really good employees go find jobs elsewhere.  Because they can.  So, while certainly not universal, your callbacks skew towards less-desirable employees.  And even the good ones are disenchanted by the whole process and much more likely to believe what the old-head nay-sayers say in the future.  You poison your own well.  You will never again be as efficient as you were before. 

I've been through these cycles on the railroad a few times now.  And it's always the same.

And it's no better on the exempt side either.   The paradigm shift there is so much different than the railroads have ever had to deal with they just don't know what to do.  For too long (forever) they've seen the work as a "calling".  And, for many of us, it is.  But (and this is not a slight) not for the younger generation. It's a job.  It can be replaced with another.  That pays better.  And doesn't have you doing the work that, literally, 4 people did just a year ago.  I couldn't tell you how long it's been since I met a new-hire who was excited to work for the railroad.   You just can't treat those people the same as you can those who are there as a "calling".  Exempt job conditions, both in the field and in the corporate environment, have gotten significantly worse over my 20 years, not better. 

Compensation, in every form, is literally worse than when I started -- new-hires today are paid less (yes, salary today is LESS than it was twenty years ago), get less time-off,  have significantly less health benefits, no longer have a pension, and on top of all of that will work more hours.   It's simply not an aspirational career as it once was.  Now, for all too many, it's something you do coming out of school while waiting for something better.  Retention rates on new hires have plummeted.  Attrition on existing employees, once a number that was effectively near-zero, is off the charts. 

Railroad leadership still views the competition for their employees -- both exempt and scheduled -- as just the other roads.  So if times are "bad" for them they don't have to worry about employee retention because there's no where for them to go.  And that's just not the way the world works any longer.   A skilled journeyman can practically name their price with an employer.  And exempts aren't silo'd into "railroading" -- if anything it's the opposite -- and the multi-disciplinary work that they all end up doing makes them desirable for virtually anyone.

It's very unfortunate that this is the case...  I wish I'd seen this post when it was first posted.  Why?

My oldest son just started training for the Union Pacific as a freight conductor.  The job and training are out in Portland Oregon.  We live in New England.  He started training on Sept 13th.  The week before, we packed up his car and he and I drove from NE out to Oregon.  Four days worth of driving.  It was a good experience and I can now cross "driving coast to coast" off the bucket list.  But it was a really long way to go for the salary he is going to be getting. 

The formal job offer came in three weeks before he had to report to training.  Not only that, the claimed salary for his job is "...you can expect to make about $52K per year...".  "Expect to make" is a whole lot different than "this is your starting salary".  On top of this, we'd read very poor reviews/horror stories about working for the UP, NS, CSX and other class one RR's, but our son decided he still wanted to give it a shot.  He's absolutely nuts about trains, has been from a very early age, and having not gone to trade school, and bailed out of college, there was not much else he could do.

But this is something we were afraid of...  All the bad reviews mentioned frequent furloughs.  All of us are concerned about having moved across country, find an apartment, etc, only to be furloughed a short time after leaving training.  Not to mention the treatment that RR workers have to endure.  If our son had better options, we would have talked him out of taking the job, but he doesn't and wanted to give it a shot.  Luckily he has a back up plan, which is to join the Air Force Reserves once he gets out of training, starts working and gets settled.  That way he at least has some income and something to fall back on if the RR job sucks as bad as we're afraid it will be.

Like I said...  I wish I'd read this before my son accepted the job offer.  The only hope I have here, is that they're so hard up for employees, that furloughs are few and far between.  Maybe the pay will get better, or maybe he'll move up the ranks to be an engineer (which is where he wants to end up).  Maybe he'll do it for a few years, get some good work experience, then move on to another job (RR or not).  We'll see...

JB

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2021, 10:47:54 AM »
0
Like I said...  I wish I'd read this before my son accepted the job offer.  The only hope I have here, is that they're so hard up for employees, that furloughs are few and far between.  Maybe the pay will get better, or maybe he'll move up the ranks to be an engineer (which is where he wants to end up).  Maybe he'll do it for a few years, get some good work experience, then move on to another job (RR or not).  We'll see...

It's going to be a tough life, and UP is one of the worst to work for (from what I've read), but it'll be good experience and will hopefully give him something to build on when he gets fed up with it.

JeffB

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2021, 10:53:49 AM »
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It's going to be a tough life, and UP is one of the worst to work for (from what I've read), but it'll be good experience and will hopefully give him something to build on when he gets fed up with it.

His current plan (other than the Air Force Reserves) is to stick it out until he can't stand it anymore, then try to move over to BNSF or another RR.  If he can do that, and it's not much better, at least he'll have work experience and can use that for a better job.

He's a pretty tough kid when it comes to doing crappy thankless jobs, so maybe it'll work out, at least for a little while.  Not getting my hopes up, but I'm not going to tell him that!

Jeff

davefoxx

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2021, 11:04:28 AM »
+2
I wish your son the best of luck in a tough situation.  If it doesn't work out, perhaps, if he likes the military and railroading, he can combine his interests: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=5473179.   :D

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Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2021, 11:16:17 AM »
+1
His current plan (other than the Air Force Reserves) is to stick it out until he can't stand it anymore, then try to move over to BNSF or another RR.  If he can do that, and it's not much better, at least he'll have work experience and can use that for a better job.

He's a pretty tough kid when it comes to doing crappy thankless jobs, so maybe it'll work out, at least for a little while.  Not getting my hopes up, but I'm not going to tell him that!

Jeff


There's also the world of shortlines and passenger rail. Both have significantly better qualities of life (but with less renumeration potential).

The biggest piece of advice that I've picked up from pros I can pass along for him is to not get used to the income when it's good. Not to go buying a $50k truck when that first paycheck shows up, don't buy that jet ski, etc... Essentially, don't make long term financial commitments that make it tough when things are lean. Apparently doing that is a thing that lots of young railroaders do and come to regret quickly.

Dave V

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2021, 11:31:45 AM »
+1
There's also the world of shortlines and passenger rail. Both have significantly better qualities of life (but with less renumeration potential).

The biggest piece of advice that I've picked up from pros I can pass along for him is to not get used to the income when it's good. Not to go buying a $50k truck when that first paycheck shows up, don't buy that jet ski, etc... Essentially, don't make long term financial commitments that make it tough when things are lean. Apparently doing that is a thing that lots of young railroaders do and come to regret quickly.

Same advice you give first-term enlisted folks when they get that deployment windfall.

Hawghead

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2021, 12:03:39 PM »
+6
Jeff,

The "expect to make" is there because it's very hard to determine how much anyone is going to make in a year on the railroad due to a multitude of factors.  In you son's case first he's going to start out at 75% pay with an increase of 5% per year.  However he will get a 5% increase anytime he takes promotion, for example when he promotes from switchman to conductor (part of the training).  Additionally how much he makes will depend on where he ends up working.  If he goes to the yard he will tend to make less then if he goes to the road and in both cases his earnings will be different depending on if he's on the extra board or holds a regular job/pool turn.  And it's not unheard of for an FNG to hold a regular job/pool turn, I myself held a turn on the Portland to Seattle pool from the first day I marked up and kept it for almost a year before I got bumped.  Finally it also depends on how much he stays marked up.  If he doesn't lay off, he can make significantly more then someone who lays off a lot.  I had an old head tell me once, "If you wanna work the railroad will fill up your pockets."

As to becoming an engineer, if that is what he really wants to do he needs to put in his bid as soon as he possibly can.  On the railroad your seniority date is everything and sooner you get one the better.  However, in the Portland service unit we have guys that have 10 years as a qualified engineer and are still bouncing back and forth between the cab and the ground.  A number of years ago there was a big push to qualify engineers and a number of people took promotion to engineer to keep from getting furloughed (the training guaranteed an additional six months of working).  As a result we have a huge back log of qualified engineers that don't have enough seniority to hold as engineers.

Finally, don't let all the talk about railroads being a horrible place to work get to you or your son.  I'll be the first to admit that the railroad only cares about one thing and that's profits, they don't give a damn about the people working for them.  However, I've been doing this for almost 20 years now and I still love my job, from dragging a 10,000' manifest through territory that looks like a sine-wave on an O-scope to kicking box cars in the yard I still love it.  Things have become better over the last few years.  When I first hired out they spent six months training you and the rest of your career trying to fire you, now you have to screw up pretty big to get fired.  Not to long ago I blew through an unannounced slow order,  I called my MOP the next day and asked him how long I was going to get fired for and he laughed.  I eventually had to take a MAPS class which consisted of sitting in a class room for a day, for which I got payed.  I make good money for a blue collar worker (between 100 and 120k a year) I know that some people here won't think that's "good" money but it ain't bad.  But like I tell everyone, "the railroad doesn't pay me for what I do, they pay me for the life style I lead".  And that life style isn't for everyone.  The biggest thing that is going to make or break your son in this business is his attitude.  If he lets the bitchers and complainers get to him he's going to hate it.  But if he comes to work knowing he's going to be there for 12+ hours and if he's never satisfied with how he performed yesterday and tries to do it better today then he won't have any problems.  Besides, what other blue collar job come with paparazzi?  ;)  What is your son's name?  I'll try and keep an eye out for him when he marks up.

Sorry for the long post,
Scott   
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Hawghead

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2021, 12:12:00 PM »
0
There's also the world of shortlines and passenger rail. Both have significantly better qualities of life (but with less renumeration potential).

Ed,

I beg to differ.  Ask anyone who's been of both sides of that fence and they'll probably tell you that just ain't so.  Shortlines operate on a much smaller profit margin that Class one roads and therefore care even less about quality of life or safety.  We have several guys working here in Portland that have worked for shortlines in the area and none of them would go back if they didn't have to.

Scott
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Chris333

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2021, 12:19:43 PM »
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I have a few friends that either work for or worked for the railroad and they tell me you need to get unemployment insurance. Not very encouraging.

John

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2021, 12:50:30 PM »
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Jeff,

=I make good money for a blue collar worker (between 100 and 120k a year) I know that some people here won't think that's "good" money but it ain't bad.  But like I tell everyone, "the railroad doesn't pay me for what I do, they pay me for the life style I lead". 

I don't know why it's gotten to the point where 100-120K per year isn't considered to be good money?   degree or not .. 

JeffB

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2021, 12:56:48 PM »
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There's also the world of shortlines and passenger rail. Both have significantly better qualities of life (but with less renumeration potential).

The biggest piece of advice that I've picked up from pros I can pass along for him is to not get used to the income when it's good. Not to go buying a $50k truck when that first paycheck shows up, don't buy that jet ski, etc... Essentially, don't make long term financial commitments that make it tough when things are lean. Apparently doing that is a thing that lots of young railroaders do and come to regret quickly.

Thanks for the advice Ed...  I'd replied to this once before, but must have left the page before hitting "Post".

Luckily, my son is not really interested in cars/trucks, or any other big ticket toys.  Thanks to his mom, he's very frugal.  We had to cosign a car loan so he could purchase a new car for the trip cross country, but we were able to keep the payments down to about $300/month.  He's currently staying in a long term AirBnB, so we could avoid signing a long term lease for an apartment, at least until he's sure it's going to work out for him.

Other than the occasional HO scale locomotive purchase, he doesn't spend much money day to day. 

So we're hoping that the job works out and he gets plenty of hours.  He's not afraid to work hard or work crappy hours and thanks to his love of all things trains, he's highly motivated to make this work.

Thanks again...

Jeff

C855B

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2021, 01:02:10 PM »
+1
I don't know why it's gotten to the point where 100-120K per year isn't considered to be good money?   degree or not ..

Yeah, I thought the same thing. My engineering job would be about at that level today had I not retired. That's good money as long as you don't (try to) live in major metros.

I was pushing a desk (actually, a computer keyboard) for SP for a few years in the '70s. Had several friends on the operations side, and even then they were always bitchin' about the furloughs and the constant bumping and having no life outside of the RR. While the attraction of being around trains sustained my interest for a while, I'd heard quite enough about on-the-road realities to dissuade me from pursuing any ops job.

Fast forward to 2006 when I was between gigs, I applied to UP for, yes, an operations job. As soon as it came out that I was more than likely to be assigned to some really gawdawful pool position in a far northern state - Idaho, IIRC - I simply dropped off their radar. That kind of life disruption at 55 y.o. was not going to happen on top of knowing how tough a job it was.

JeffB

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2021, 01:11:13 PM »
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Jeff,

The "expect to make" is there because it's very hard to determine how much anyone is going to make in a year on the railroad due to a multitude of factors.  In you son's case first he's going to start out at 75% pay with an increase of 5% per year.  However he will get a 5% increase anytime he takes promotion, for example when he promotes from switchman to conductor (part of the training).  Additionally how much he makes will depend on where he ends up working.  If he goes to the yard he will tend to make less then if he goes to the road and in both cases his earnings will be different depending on if he's on the extra board or holds a regular job/pool turn.  And it's not unheard of for an FNG to hold a regular job/pool turn, I myself held a turn on the Portland to Seattle pool from the first day I marked up and kept it for almost a year before I got bumped.  Finally it also depends on how much he stays marked up.  If he doesn't lay off, he can make significantly more then someone who lays off a lot.  I had an old head tell me once, "If you wanna work the railroad will fill up your pockets."

As to becoming an engineer, if that is what he really wants to do he needs to put in his bid as soon as he possibly can.  On the railroad your seniority date is everything and sooner you get one the better.  However, in the Portland service unit we have guys that have 10 years as a qualified engineer and are still bouncing back and forth between the cab and the ground.  A number of years ago there was a big push to qualify engineers and a number of people took promotion to engineer to keep from getting furloughed (the training guaranteed an additional six months of working).  As a result we have a huge back log of qualified engineers that don't have enough seniority to hold as engineers.

Finally, don't let all the talk about railroads being a horrible place to work get to you or your son.  I'll be the first to admit that the railroad only cares about one thing and that's profits, they don't give a damn about the people working for them.  However, I've been doing this for almost 20 years now and I still love my job, from dragging a 10,000' manifest through territory that looks like a sine-wave on an O-scope to kicking box cars in the yard I still love it.  Things have become better over the last few years.  When I first hired out they spent six months training you and the rest of your career trying to fire you, now you have to screw up pretty big to get fired.  Not to long ago I blew through an unannounced slow order,  I called my MOP the next day and asked him how long I was going to get fired for and he laughed.  I eventually had to take a MAPS class which consisted of sitting in a class room for a day, for which I got payed.  I make good money for a blue collar worker (between 100 and 120k a year) I know that some people here won't think that's "good" money but it ain't bad.  But like I tell everyone, "the railroad doesn't pay me for what I do, they pay me for the life style I lead".  And that life style isn't for everyone.  The biggest thing that is going to make or break your son in this business is his attitude.  If he lets the bitchers and complainers get to him he's going to hate it.  But if he comes to work knowing he's going to be there for 12+ hours and if he's never satisfied with how he performed yesterday and tries to do it better today then he won't have any problems.  Besides, what other blue collar job come with paparazzi?  ;)  What is your son's name?  I'll try and keep an eye out for him when he marks up.

Sorry for the long post,
Scott   

Hi Scott... 

Thanks so much for the long post!  Very informative and it does make me feel better.  Will cut and past it into an E-mail to my son.  The info on becoming an engineer is especially helpful, because that's his ultimate goal.  He does understand that it can/will be a very long road to get there.  At this point, he's still gung ho to walk that road, so we'll see.

My wife and I's biggest fear or concern (other than safety, which it appears the UP takes pretty seriously) is that he given enough shifts to pay his bills.  He's not afraid of hard work.  The job he left wasn't terrible, but management was awful and the patrons were pretty difficult.  He volunteered at the local Trolley museum, often doing dirty and difficult tasks.  He has no problem with getting dirty, or working long hours if it's something he loves.  He's also respectful and has a very good attitude, so based on what you've said, I think he'll do OK. 

Talked to him last night...  His training "section" (the guys in his class) was supposed to be ~15 guys.  Of that, only 7 accepted the job offer.  Of them, only 6 showed up.  One guy was just fired for no-showing on the second day, then being late back from lunch on the third.  He was shocked at how quickly the UP/trainer took action on this, it also further emphasized how important it is he tows the line.  Which he's good at.

Though many may not consider $100K-$120K "good money", I certainly do!  My wife and I would be ecstatic if/when he's making that kind of money years down the line.  That's nothing to sneeze at, no matter where you live!

I'll send you a PM with his name.  Thanks again Scott, your informative post made me feel better about his prospects.

Take care,

Jeff


JeffB

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Re: The new normal- burn baby, burn.
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2021, 01:16:47 PM »
0
I don't know why it's gotten to the point where 100-120K per year isn't considered to be good money?   degree or not ..

I agree, it's damn good money...  I'm in the Engineering field (non-degreed "Test Engineer") and 55yrs old and I don't make that with ~30yrs in that field. 

That said...  It's relative.  My wife works in the healthcare field, where non-MD specializations are paying $150K+ to start right out of school, at least in level 1 trauma centers.  Again, it's relative.

But $100-$120K per year is nothing to stick up your nose at, I'd take it and be very happy about it!

Jeff