Author Topic: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion  (Read 1417 times)

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Rivet Miscounter

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48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« on: April 05, 2021, 02:00:27 PM »
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This is sort of an Proto question, sort of a Z/N question, sort of a scratchbuilding question.  So I'm starting in the highest traffic area for an applicable subject classification....the N/Z discussion forum.

I currently have these:
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And want to make this: (virtual proof of concept photo)
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Doug

Rivet Miscounter

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2021, 02:01:09 PM »
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So, speaking from a purely prototypical standpoint, will this be a reasonable representation of a RAF33/53 in Z-scale?   If not, what would need to be altered, or is it too big of a hill to climb.   I've studied photos and I am just finding it hard to make out what's what with these cars.  And factoring in they're Z-scale, etc and wondering what details even matter.   So, I have done some research but wanted to see what the experts say.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 02:07:04 PM by Rivet Miscounter »
Doug

Rivet Miscounter

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2021, 02:19:28 PM »
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A related question I have is...how many 48AP's still existed in the 2005-2006 timeframe.   From my photos and some YouTube stuff it seems like I see some, but I'm not sure if those might have been the "converted" cars...did they keep the same numbers I guess?  It's hard to tell from an deep angle in videos if they're 5ft longer.  (and is it just 5ft?)   I could do these conversions instead of attempting the RAF53 cars also, as another option.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 02:21:30 PM by Rivet Miscounter »
Doug

James Costello

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2021, 05:42:25 AM »
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If you mean these beauties Doug, I believe @GaryHinshaw has put the most thought into the kitbash in N.

https://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=48328
https://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=48327
https://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=94023

A few years ago now I wrote:
Quote
Beginning in 2004, to match the decline in 48’ trailer traffic and the increases in 53’ equipment, TTX began rebuiling sets of the Trinity built 48’ AP spine cars to handle 53’ trailers.  These rebuilt cars feature a very distinctive wheel tray at the extension (TTAX 555500 – 556999), as well as an extension of the A and B platforms of the cars.  The original scope of the program was to encompass 1,500 spine car sets, but due to the cost of the required modifications, as well as the reduction of TOFC volumes during the financial downturn late in the program, the full extent of the program was never realized and rebuilt cars are found scattered throughout the series limits.  The majority of the un-rebuilt 48’ spine cars were repurposed into windmill blade service, were stored, or have been scrapped.

I'll need to dig out some other books for the 48AP quantities in 05/06.

Hope this helps mate.
James Costello
Espee into the 90's

Sokramiketes

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2021, 08:18:38 AM »
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I like where you're headed, but haven't sorted this out myself.  I need a couple 53' capable spines for a Z train.

Tim the Z Scale Hobo was starting to learn white metal casting and produced a few test shots of 53' spines.  It was just the centerbeam and some supports, but I have a set and will eventually try to add styrene details. 

If it wasn't so hard to add weight, they would be a quick styrene build in Z scale, at least to the level of detail we need.  I'm looking forward to seeing how your kitbash goes.  I have one extra set of the 48'AP cars, but not two. 

Rivet Miscounter

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2021, 09:57:18 AM »
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If you mean these beauties Doug, I believe @GaryHinshaw has put the most thought into the kitbash in N.

I'll need to dig out some other books for the 48AP quantities in 05/06.  Hope this helps mate.

It does help, thank you for the links.  I did see Gary's info...that was one of the things that actually pointed me toward trying to make a RAF33/53 versus the conversion since there just weren't that many of the conversions in the mix.  (Plus, in combining sets, the 3-unit cars gain an extra set or two)   I'm probably over-thinking this...I think I'll just do the conversion exactly as I have done with the proof above and call it a day.   I have 8 sets of the 48APs, and cutting up 6 of them yields three 5-unit and two 3-unit 53ft sets, and the other two will stay 48s...they can't be that much of an anachronism.
Doug

Rivet Miscounter

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2021, 10:12:00 AM »
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[HoboTim] was starting to learn white metal casting and produced a few test shots of 53' spines.  It was just the centerbeam and some supports, but I have a set and will eventually try to add styrene details. 

If it wasn't so hard to add weight, they would be a quick styrene build in Z scale, at least to the level of detail we need.  I'm looking forward to seeing how your kitbash goes.  I have one extra set of the 48'AP cars, but not two.

Yeah, HoboTim has been quasi-working on a 57ft spine now and I'm also very interested in that one too.  Didn't know he did a 53 but doesn't surprise me...he had a lot of items getting done 10-12 years ago or so.  Seems like everytime I turn around I see something new he did that I never knew about. (albeit not for sale, generally.  I've purchased everything I've seen of his in my time in Z, and that's two items...a 48ft Thrall stack single and a heavy duty QTTX flat.)

Aside from the weight issue, they could also be printed.   I think that  may be Tim's plan with the 57's is print one then do the white metal casting using the (cleaned up) printed one as a master.   That would be an ideal setup if he has the process down.
Doug

GaryHinshaw

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2021, 12:10:16 PM »
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Well, I'm no expert on the 48' spine fleet, and I'm not really sure what your question is.  But judging from the photos above, it looks like the prototype for the model is the Thrall cars which seem to share design features with the Trinity RAF33/53 fleet, so I would go with your plan to splice them to 53' sets.

My starting point is to be the N Scale Kits 48' set, which is based (I think) on a Freight Car America design.  The prototype units were converted to 53' sets ~10 years ago.  I don't know if the Thrall sets were, but it looks like you should be able to get a pretty good rendition of the as-built 53' sets anyway.  I gather from your photos that you're planning two splices per car by harvesting several platform pieces from a single donor and using those on the rest of the units.  That's a lot of careful splicing!  In my case, I was able to buy an extra set of spines and platforms from NSK at a discount, so I'm just going to use 2 full 48' sets to make 1 53' set @ 1 splice per car.

For reference, here is a shot of the underside of a RAF33 model:



Note that the support spacing on the outer units is different than on the inner one(s).  I think that is because the housing for the 20' container pedestals on the outer units are under the platform on the 53' sets, but exposed on the 48' sets, so they had to reconfigure the support design.  You'll have to decide how you want to manage that.  I'd remove the pedestal housing since they are visible from above, and then manage the underside supports as best as I could.

As to whether any 48' sets survived beyond 2005: yes.  And they can even carry 53' trailers.   :lol:

Sokramiketes

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2021, 01:10:00 PM »
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As to whether any 48' sets survived beyond 2005: yes.  And they can even carry 53' trailers.   :lol:

Ha, good point!  I'm running my completed 48'AP set with three 53' trailers on it right now.  On A, B, and D.  If it fits it ships!

Rivet Miscounter

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2021, 07:44:27 PM »
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Well, I'm no expert on the 48' spine fleet, and I'm not really sure what your question is.  But judging from the photos above, it looks like the prototype for the model is the Thrall cars which seem to share design features with the Trinity RAF33/53 fleet, so I would go with your plan to splice them to 53' sets.

My starting point is to be the N Scale Kits 48' set, which is based (I think) on a Freight Car America design.  The prototype units were converted to 53' sets ~10 years ago.  I don't know if the Thrall sets were, but it looks like you should be able to get a pretty good rendition of the as-built 53' sets anyway.

What is my question....well I guess I was trying to just get a feel for if what I am attempting will result in something that looks reasonably prototypical. (see also below my comments about your photos of the BLMA car.)  For not knowing the question, your answer was pretty spot on as to what I was (poorly) asking.   8)    My cars are also N Scale Kits (and some of the subsequent run from EDM) albeit in Z-scale.  I'm not sure if they were of different prototypes but as you say, everything I'm seeing is that the features are mostly similar...definitely nothing over the top that would matter too terribly much in Z, IMHO.

Quote
I gather from your photos that you're planning two splices per car by harvesting several platform pieces from a single donor and using those on the rest of the units.  That's a lot of careful splicing!  In my case, I was able to buy an extra set of spines and platforms from NSK at a discount, so I'm just going to use 2 full 48' sets to make 1 53' set @ 1 splice per car.

So, actually I have EIGHT sets of these cars that I've managed to collect over the last 5-6 years.  My plan is to take 6 and cut them up, which should yield three 5-unit sets and 2 3-unit sets and only require a single splice per car...if my initial cut plan was accurate.  So yes, your point has already been considered and I'm willing to lose a few more platforms for the sake of a little more sanity.   :scared:

Quote
For reference, here is a shot of the underside of a RAF33 model... <snip>  ...I'd remove the pedestal housing since they are visible from above, and then manage the underside supports as best as I could.

You could not have found a better photo for this thread.  I actually considered trying to buy a BLMA set to study, but the cost kept me away.  Again, a great bit of info that helps me and is sort of what I was looking for.

Quote
As to whether any 48' sets survived beyond 2005: yes.  And they can even carry 53' trailers.   :lol:

OK, perfect.  I was seeing pics like that (including some from my own stash) and that was throwing me off that I was seeing 53's on apparently 48ft cars.  Definitely a big part of my confusion.   But that's good that I know I can keep a couple of them stock and still make use of them.   Should be a pretty good mix of 3-and-5 unit 53's and 48's, and if HoboTim ever does the 57's I'll get a couple of those hopefully to round out the TOFC.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 09:02:55 PM by Rivet Miscounter »
Doug

GaryHinshaw

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2021, 07:07:00 PM »
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I've been thinking about this a bit more and I thought this shot might also be helpful:



The outer two spines are the B and C units from a BLMA RAF33 set, the inner two are the B and C units from an N Scale Kits 48' set.  The latter are definitely the same prototype as your Z set.  When the prototype extended these spines, they added a platform section to the rear of the existing platforms, as seen here:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1018663

The spotting feature for this is an extended side panel that is deeper than the rest of the platform side.  If you wanted to reproduce this you would basically have to do the same operation.  Probably not worth the trouble.  A simpler mod would be to extend the spine and the front of the platform by 5' and call it a day. 

If it were me, I would be tempted to just scratch build the extension rather than trying to splice a section out of an existing car (that way you don't have to sacrifice any sets).  You could cut the spine anywhere away from the platform, drill two holes in the cut ends and join them with heavy gauge solid wire, leaving a 5' gap.  I think you could use 0.125" x 0.125" styrene stock to make the core of the spine extension (drill a clearance hole through it longitudinally and thread it over your splice wire before you glue it all together.  Then you can face the top and bottom of the spine with some thin styrene to get the top & bottom flanges.  The wheel platform extensions could be easily made from styrene as well (since the stock platforms probably lack any detail).  You could glue the extra rib directly to the bottom of the platform extension.  My 2¢.

-gfh

P.S. When I get around to doing this with my kits, I'm going to 3-d print new wheel platforms with the proper side detail.  The stock platforms lack detail and they are separate parts to start with, so it's no great hardship.

Rivet Miscounter

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2021, 12:04:12 PM »
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I've been thinking about this a bit more <snip>

A simpler mod would be to extend the spine and the front of the platform by 5' and call it a day. 

If it were me, I would be tempted to just scratch build the extension rather than trying to splice a section out of an existing car (that way you don't have to sacrifice any sets).  You could cut the spine anywhere away from the platform, drill two holes in the cut ends and join them with heavy gauge solid wire, leaving a 5' gap.  I think you could use 0.125" x 0.125" styrene stock to make the core of the spine extension (drill a clearance hole through it longitudinally and thread it over your splice wire before you glue it all together.  Then you can face the top and bottom of the spine with some thin styrene to get the top & bottom flanges.  The wheel platform extensions could be easily made from styrene as well (since the stock platforms probably lack any detail).  You could glue the extra rib directly to the bottom of the platform extension.

P.S. When I get around to doing this with my kits, I'm going to 3-d print new wheel platforms with the proper side detail.  The stock platforms lack detail and they are separate parts to start with, so it's no great hardship.

Wow, a lot to unpack here...takeaways:
-First off, another great photo and a lot of insightful comments.  Thank you for that.
-BLMA spoiled us.   I know they aren't perfect and you've made mods, but man I remember the blood pumping fast when those showed up.
-Not sure I love the idea of the styrene extension, but I'm definitely considering it.  One complication is that the platforms are molded into the Z version, they're not separate pieces.   That doesn't make a ton of difference, but some.  With that I could probably easily get two 5-unit cars and two 3-unit cars out of four sets.  (that assumes I don't scratchbuild the supports, plus I wouldn't mind the variety that a 3-unit car offers)   Armed with the knowledge that the 48s can haul 53ft trailers in A, B, and D that might be a good compromise and a little bit less work.   I still wonder about the strength of bonding pewter-to-styrene-to-pewter.  (see https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=51543  for more info about my pewter-phobia.   There are actually some really good responses on that thread.)
-Probably the thing that bothers me the most is the inverted supports on the articulated ends, and--while I have the jewelers' saw out--that should be a relatively easy fix. (note they same a little narrower, so even if I lose a little material I'm still good.)  I may also fabricated the L-brackets that extend down further on the coupler platform.
-Since the platforms are molded on, I plan to used decals to represent the tread and--maybe along with some thin styrene--other detail on the platforms.
-One other thing on my to-do is maybe some level of 3D printed detail...at very least the hitches.   Need to find someone that has a file for N/HO hitches that I can hopefully scale down and get them printed.
-Along that same line, does anyone have a diagram of how the piping and details are laid out?  I stare at photos of proto and models for hours and it seems impossible to logically solve the puzzle.  That is where having one in hand would be really nice.  I'm not going overboard here...just really want some simplified "Z-scale" representation of the piping and brake equipment.   This last photo does actually help and I might even finally be able to piece it together based on the pic.

Well, thanks again for the feedback.   I just bought a new jewelers saw and blades and guess I'll just dig into it pretty soon.   Planning a layout blitz over the next few weekends but after that I'll probably build out two of the 48 sets for testing and then it will be time to start cutting.
Doug

GaryHinshaw

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Re: 48AP Spine to RAF33/53 Conversion
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2021, 05:35:24 PM »
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-BLMA spoiled us.   I know they aren't perfect and you've made mods, but man I remember the blood pumping fast when those showed up.
Indeed, they are outstanding!  I hope the Atlas follow-ons are as good (whenever they finally arrive).

-Not sure I love the idea of the styrene extension, but I'm definitely considering it. 
I'm not sold on it either, but I should clarify that the styrene is not intended as a structural element, just a sheathing, if you will.  The core of the extension would be heavy gauge steel wire epoxied into holes in each spine.  The styrene would just cover that.  I have no doubt that would be strong enough; the challenge would be to make it straight and true.

-Probably the thing that bothers me the most is the inverted supports on the articulated ends, and--while I have the jewelers' saw out--that should be a relatively easy fix. (note they same a little narrower, so even if I lose a little
I'm not following what the problem is here.  The supports look ok in the photos.  :?

-One other thing on my to-do is maybe some level of 3D printed detail...at very least the hitches.
You mean something like this?



I drew these up for the BLMA cars, but it wouldn't be too hard to adapt them to Z.