The New Northern Central

[LKOrailroad]

@Scottl He is working with 3/4" depth. That's the challenge. Finding something stiff enough yet still fits in his L girder assembly. I'm sure the 1x2 is tempting because construction is so easy but it makes for a problem prone solution. Steel stud is out due to thickness, sheetrock corner protectors would require a lot of long snipping to make fit. I like the idea though. Metal, not wood, is what the design calls for.

[nickelplate759]

How about 3/4" deep channel or rectangular tube (aluminum or steel), open side down for the longitudinal beam?

[Scottl]

The drywall corner bead is probably an 1", notch it at the brackets and suffer with 1/4" under-hang elsewhere 

But honestly, for the length in question, given how much cost a layout really is, I would just buy 3/4" aluminum or steel angle and use that to support the longitudinal wood.  Iron pipe is another option (and a good idea, probably the cheapest metal shape you can get).  I remember the Restore in my old home had metal shapes that were less expensive than retail.

I'm following this closely as I contemplate my own benchwork plans.  Thanks for Ed taking one for the team!

[C855B]

I agree with both of you - my fallback would be architectural aluminum shapes. There are U-channels intended to wrap around the end of common ply thicknesses, and in this case would add just enough strength and stability, and wouldn't even have to be placed underneath as a beam. Very pricey, tho', intended to be used for appearance and not for structure. Not to say I haven't over-engineered anything like that.

If you really want to think outside the box, there is a line of aluminum shapes that essentially boils down to an adult-sized Erector set: https://8020.net/

[Ed Kapuscinski]

With all due respect, within a short time the 1x2 soft wood will be less than useless installed that way. For the sake of long term flatness please reconsider.

Are you concerned about its use in the girder or as the stringer?

As far as the stringer goes, it's real reason for existence is to give me something to glue foam to when the sheet breaks occur away from the shelf brackets.

The brackets are on 22" centers. Do you really think there's going to be THAT much sag between the supports? Especially given that the heaviest things on it will be a thin layer of unsanded grout dirt.

If it's as part of the girder, remember, like 75% of it is already supported by the bracket. The real reason for the girder is as a mating surface for vertical risers and to tie the notched flat top parts together.

[davefoxx]

Do you really think there's going to be THAT much sag between the supports? Especially given that the heaviest things on it will be a thin layer of unsanded grout dirt.

My biggest concern comes from the 1:1 operators leaning on it, even if only inadvertently.  That's why I build my layouts sturdier than just beefy enough to hold up some trains.  If you could watch my daughter come into the train room and try to get up to the height of my layout, she steps up on a footstool and, everytime (like it or not), she grabs the layout fascia to steady herself or even pull herself up.  She's only nine-years old and doesn't weigh much, but even that minimal abuse requires some strength to the layout above and beyond merely carrying a thin layer of unsanded grout dirt.

Hope this helps,
DFF

[LKOrailroad]

@Scottl There you go! 3/4 steel angle is cheap and will fit perfectly. About $10 for an 8' stick.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

My biggest concern comes from the 1:1 operators leaning on it, even if only inadvertently.  That's why I build my layouts sturdier than just beefy enough to hold up some trains.  If you could watch my daughter come into the train room and try to get up to the height of my layout, she steps up on a footstool and, everytime (like it or not), she grabs the layout fascia to steady herself or even pull herself up.  She's only nine-years old and doesn't weigh much, but even that minimal abuse requires some strength to the layout above and beyond merely carrying a thin layer of unsanded grout dirt.

Hope this helps,
DFF

And you just convinced me to run a 1x4 along the front of the whole thing!

This layer of the layout is all at a$$ height too.

I think that should beef it up quite a bit and solve most of the problems people are concerned with.

[C855B]

My biggest concern comes from the 1:1 operators leaning on it, even if only inadvertently. ...

OMG, this! I was advised before starting benchwork to design for this. My framework was planned to be quite light, including supports all out of XPS foam. @gkoproske told me, "Guys are gonna lean," both casually and in reaching for something. Glad I followed his advice.

So, yeah. 

[LKOrailroad]

Are you concerned about its use in the girder or as the stringer?

As far as the stringer goes, it's real reason for existence is to give me something to glue foam to when the sheet breaks occur away from the shelf brackets.

The brackets are on 22" centers. Do you really think there's going to be THAT much sag between the supports? Especially given that the heaviest things on it will be a thin layer of unsanded grout dirt.

If it's as part of the girder, remember, like 75% of it is already supported by the bracket. The real reason for the girder is as a mating surface for vertical risers and to tie the notched flat top parts together.

Stringer. Your bracket girders are fine. It's the long span between brackets with such a thin piece of wood that is concerning.

Layout weight is not the real concern. There isn't enough weight to make much of a difference. It's the natural tendency of unsupported wood to sag. Wood fiber is elastic. Look at any piece of lumber that has been laying up against a wall for a while. It will be bowed even though there is zero weight on it. That's why you see the specific geometry used in roof trusses made of 2x4s.

I don't know if I understand how you are using the stringer as anchor for glued foam. Won't it be only supporting the foam glue joint for a very small width? What about the foam glue joint in front of and behind the stringer. What supports it there?

If foam joints are the sole reason for a stringer and no lateral support is intended then why stringer at all? Use glued on, full depth, hardboard tabs to join the sheets. PL300 works great gluing wood to foam. You can even make crude foam butt joints without tabs using PL200 if you wish. I do it all the time for landscaping foam just to use up foam odd shapes. A little slow drying but plenty strong when done.



 

[DKS]

Having fun yet, Ed?

[Steveruger45]

You can never have too many clamps.

[CRL]

If memory serves, Linn Westcott used the L-girder approach because he could attach cross pieces by driving screws from underneath through the L-girder into the cross pieces. This allowed him to access the screw-heads later in case he wanted to relocate any of the cross pieces in his open grid benchwork. However, your wall brackets are serving the same purpose as Westcott’s L-girders. I agree with some of the other posters that you need some longitudinal support at the front of the layout, but you also need some at the rear along the wall between the brackets. A simple ladder frame of 1x2’s on edge placed on top of the wall brackets is the simple solution. You may not want to use this approach, but you need to provide all the support elements it provides. You can attach blocks to the wall between the brackets for the rear support, and a fascia board of some type will provide the necessary support along the front.

Have fun.

[nickelplate759]

My two very first layouts (many, many years ago, when MR under Linn Wescott was actively promoting it) used L-girder.   L-girder is (by design) very flexible, but also quite heavy and uses a lot of vertical space.  I found it to be overkill and  haven't used it since.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Filled in the remaining gap in the upper level shelf last night.

I hadn't done any Liquid Nails graffiti on this build so far, so I decided to take one of my last chances to get in on it!