Author Topic: The New Northern Central  (Read 93542 times)

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Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2021, 12:02:55 PM »
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Ok, so I took another look after this morning's coffee.

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If I replace the top loading washing machine with a front loader, I can now bring everything to the same level at a lower level. It also lets me drop the helix grade to about 1.5%, which is now less than the sceniced grade. I'm getting there, but still not thrilled.

It's funny: the visible part of the layout came together really quickly. It's THIS part that's proving to be the real challenge.

Philip H

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2021, 12:19:17 PM »
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ordinarily I would question solving a model railroad engineering problem with a major appliance purchase . . . .
Philip H.
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CRL

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2021, 12:31:57 PM »
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And here I thought that was a diagram of the landing holding pattern over LAX during a holiday rush.

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2021, 12:44:45 PM »
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ordinarily I would question solving a model railroad engineering problem with a major appliance purchase . . . .

It's funny, after all of the expensive stuff I've had to replace, a washing machine doesn't feel that major anymore. Maybe I've just become desensitized to the trauma.

davefoxx

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2021, 01:28:29 PM »
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Depending on the age and condition of the existing washing machine, Ed might be able to sell it and mitigate a little of the cost of the new machine.

DFF

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C855B

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2021, 02:01:19 PM »
+1
And here I thought that was a diagram of the landing holding pattern over LAX during a holiday rush.

No, it's part of the TRW research project into building a Tokamak-type superheated plasma fusion reactor. v1.0 is here, v1.1 is shown here. Given that inner loop, it looks like Ed's will be v2.0.

I was searching for photos of @GaryHinshaw 's "Mojave helix", but, alas, came up short. That would be, I think, the beta version as constructed by a real physicist.

:facepalm:

GaryHinshaw

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2021, 02:33:27 PM »
+3
It's a Vortex, not a helix: ;)



And just for 'fun', here's a top view looking inside:



Ed, I confess I haven't digested everything that you're proposing here, but I'll offer a few observations based on my experience:

* (Obvious) A helix in the middle of a mainline run is boring - avoid if you can.   My plan is a nolix with my helix serving as serial staging for one end of the line.  Operators don't have to run through the helix.  Maybe something like that could work for you?

* You need to make sure that you have good access to the helix.  If you have more than one track on a level, you'll need access from both the inside and outside.  If you don't have access to the inside, you'll need access from at least 3 sides on the outside.

* I'm confused about what staging we're talking about here.  You said early on that you're going to punch through a wall for it.  Where is that in relation to the helix?

* I'm definitely not a fan of the stacked yards along the left wall with the upper deck trackage 3 feet behind it.  That is going to be a bottleneck, especially if the door in and out of the room is along the bottom wall.

Cool concept though!

nuno81291

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2021, 03:29:04 PM »
+1
Ed have you considered making the helix actually go down to an in room third level staging yard? I have seen some slick examples of this sort of arrangement, including entire staging yards that slide out for access or just low profile enough to get a hand in and not really an open fiddle sort of yard. Of course to me the washing machine would be a drop in the bucket for a layout that size... swapping the appliance is a very reasonable solution if your CEO/CFO/ Zoning board allows  :D :D
Guilford Rail System in the 80s/90s

dem34

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2021, 04:15:39 PM »
+1
Ed have you considered making the helix actually go down to an in room third level staging yard? I have seen some slick examples of this sort of arrangement, including entire staging yards that slide out for access or just low profile enough to get a hand in and not really an open fiddle sort of yard. Of course to me the washing machine would be a drop in the bucket for a layout that size... swapping the appliance is a very reasonable solution if your CEO/CFO/ Zoning board allows  :D :D

Friend of mine has a layout that does that. It sounds good but its an ungodly b*tch and a half if anything derails in it though.
-Al

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2021, 04:30:05 PM »
+2
It's a Vortex, not a helix: ;)

Ed, I confess I haven't digested everything that you're proposing here, but I'll offer a few observations based on my experience:

* (Obvious) A helix in the middle of a mainline run is boring - avoid if you can.   My plan is a nolix with my helix serving as serial staging for one end of the line.  Operators don't have to run through the helix.  Maybe something like that could work for you?

* You need to make sure that you have good access to the helix.  If you have more than one track on a level, you'll need access from both the inside and outside.  If you don't have access to the inside, you'll need access from at least 3 sides on the outside.

* I'm confused about what staging we're talking about here.  You said early on that you're going to punch through a wall for it.  Where is that in relation to the helix?

* I'm definitely not a fan of the stacked yards along the left wall with the upper deck trackage 3 feet behind it.  That is going to be a bottleneck, especially if the door in and out of the room is along the bottom wall.

Cool concept though!

Thanks! Your MRP article was incredibly helpful in getting me thinking about this all right. "If Gary can fit extra big time railroading into a space like his, I can fit the NCR in mine." It all kinda snowballed from there.

To your points:
1. I know the mid-run helix isn't optimal. But I'm hoping I can keep it small enough AND that at a point in the run where the "pause" will actually be beneficial. My rationale for the latter is that operators following their trains will have to walk around the peninsula to watch it come out the other side. By including the helix at that spot, it gives the operator time to get ahead of the train. This is an issue on one of the layouts I operate on where the helper grade crosses over the spine of a similar peninsula. In that example you can keep eyes on the train while you're walking around, but that wouldn't be the case here.

2. Agreed. The mid-layout helix will be accessible from both sides. Again, not quite perfect, but hopefully ok given its small size. The other staging access one should be reachable on at least two sides (see the plan below) but I'm wed to this aspect of the plan yet.

3. I haven't included the staging yard on the plans yet. It'll be at the bottom of the plan as drawn in the laundry room represented by the blue room in the plan below. I'm currently working through exactly HOW I'm going to fit it in there as it's a 3D puzzle (avoiding laundry machines, a sink, electrical panels, furnaces, water heaters, etc...).

4. That's one of my big fears. I can't think of any other good way to get the two train length scenes into the space though. I thought about wrapping one around the wall at the bottom, but that causes issues with getting into the laundry room. I'm hoping that operator volume will be small enough  (3-4 people, generally) that they'll just be able to deal with each other. The tempo of ops won't be that high, so hopefully we can make it work.

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Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2021, 04:31:50 PM »
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Ed have you considered making the helix actually go down to an in room third level staging yard? I have seen some slick examples of this sort of arrangement, including entire staging yards that slide out for access or just low profile enough to get a hand in and not really an open fiddle sort of yard. Of course to me the washing machine would be a drop in the bucket for a layout that size... swapping the appliance is a very reasonable solution if your CEO/CFO/ Zoning board allows  :D :D

I have considered it as far as I've thought "hmm, perhaps that will be a better approach", but haven't put pen to paper on it yet. I am definitely thinking about it though because it's the approach I took when designing @DeltaBravo 's WM (that needs an engineering report itself) and found to work really well.

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2021, 05:55:51 PM »
+1
Ok. Another pass at the entry to staging. This is a bit more sane, but it DOES require replacing the washer.

That said, I do like the two tracks between the entrance and the actual yard. For the helix track it gives me yet another set of really, really long staging tracks. For the other side it can be a great bypass.

The rough idea at this point is to tie some of these tracks together at the other end and include a balloon to allow me to recycle trains and do continuous running.

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conrail98

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2021, 06:16:50 PM »
+1
Ok. Another pass at the entry to staging. This is a bit more sane, but it DOES require replacing the washer.

That said, I do like the two tracks between the entrance and the actual yard. For the helix track it gives me yet another set of really, really long staging tracks. For the other side it can be a great bypass.

The rough idea at this point is to tie some of these tracks together at the other end and include a balloon to allow me to recycle trains and do continuous running.

(Attachment Link)

Why don't you join the staging yards into one big one? This way trains comes out and goes in to the same track,

Phil
- Phil

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2021, 07:31:55 PM »
+1
Ed-
Each iteration is getting simpler & better - you’re on your way.   The time & effort you save by building less helix should offset a bit of the front loader cost......at least in your own modeler mind if not the family pocketbook!

As the owner of Tokamak-type superheated plasma fusion reactor. v1.1, I 100% agree with Gary that no matter the design, provide as much access as possible.  I haven’t had to go crawling inside the reactor yet.....but am able to when duty calls.

Michel


davefoxx

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Re: The New Northern Central
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2021, 07:46:27 PM »
+3
I don't know, Ed.  I'm not crazy about it taking ten minutes to get a train out of staging.  Everyone will be stuck in the laundry room trying to get out onto the main layout.  There's got to be a better way.  I think you need to keep simplifying it, because it's just too much.  Do you need a yard at both ends of the layout in the main room?  Why can't you have one yard on the bottom (eliminating stacked yards) and staging at both ends of the mainline?  Then, with one yard on the main layout, you have some flexibility to rearrange the pieces to get so much track out of the laundry room.

DFF

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