The New Northern Central

[MDW]

Great looking puppy!!!  Very worthy way to serve the community.

Michel

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Great looking puppy!!!  Very worthy way to serve the community.

Michel

He is an AMAZINGLY sweet and wonderful dog. Possibly the best one we've had come through yet, especially given what he's just been through. If anyone in the area is looking for a new family member, fill out the app now because he won't be around for long.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

So, at the risk of throwing a (tiny) spanner in the works, what exactly is your goal with this layout, specifically with this plan? I re-checked the start of the thread, and it just talks about those aspects of the prototype give you wood, but not the specific goals of the layout, as in functionally, operationally, etc. Forgive me if this is self-evident, but it's not apparent to me...

To dig deeper at DKS point (maybe?).. what are the Ops rolls for 3-4 people? A yard job, an over the road crew etc... just curious to hear how these groups would interact (out of interest from someone who is designing a similar-ish Ops centric layout). 2 man crews?

Ok! It's Monday morning and, as promised, here goes.

I'm going to talk about the ops first.

I'm not sure I'm planning for having huge operating sessions with huge crews. It's not that big of a space. The target is probably 4-5 people actually "working" at any one time.

The first is the dispatcher. My goal is for the whole thing to be eventually properly CTC'ed. This is because I've run on some layouts  and seen others setup this way and it does a LOT for the immersion and enjoyment of the whole thing. The cool thing about this is that, since it's now 2021 (and will likely be 2022 by the time that's even close to being up and running), the DS desk can be virtual. Dave Abeles does this to great effect and I want to do the same. By fully CTC, I also mean that I want to incorporate things like locked switches, etc...

Next up are the general road crews. There are theoretically up to 35 trains that could run over the line in a given day but the real count would likely be closer to 20 (many are occasional coal, ore or grain movements). The layout itself is really only setup to have 3 on it at any one time though. So those road crews would run various road trains over the line.

Those fall into a few categories:
- 6 Conrail manifests, most that make pickups or set outs at the yard, but otherwise run from staging to staging.
- 2 Conrail TV trains that run from staging to staging.
- 4 Amtrak trains, all of which stop at the station, but otherwise run from staging to staging.
- 4 Interchange trains, one pair with Chessie, one pair with Maryland Midland. I only have room to stage one of these pairs, but it'll come from West York staging and run into Windsor St.
- 3 Locals, two of which basically run right into one of the staging tracks out of York and then into the yard.
- 2 D&H trains which run from staging to staging.
- A bunch of coal, grain and ore trains that are staging to staging.

We won't run all of these during any given ops session and will do the ones chosen based on the time of day we're replicating (and what I feel like throwing at my crew).

Then there's the helper job. I'm planning on making manifests take helpers to go from New Freedom to York. These helpers will be based in New Freedom, will tie on there, and then shove up to York. They'll run light back down the hill or can be added to trains heading downhill for braking (we'll see how that actually works).

There are also a few other fun jobs planned as well.
- The MA&PA interchange job. It gets permission to enter from the DS, runs from the MPA staging, works Poorhouse Yard, and runs back into staging.
- The Stewartstown interchange job. It runs into New Freedom, then gets DS permission to use the siding to swap cars on the interchange, works the industry in NF and heads back into staging.
- Work trains. I've got a track geometry car that will occasionally show up and those tie cars. I figure I'll pull those out when people are seeming too competent.
- Visitors. I have a track in staging that I've been thinking about as the "NRHS Track". It's where excursions, etc... show up. It's where visitors can setup and run a lap or two.

[DKS]

And what do you do with the layout when there are no crews to man her?

[dem34]

And what do you do with the layout when there are no crews to man her?

If he does do full ctc with a JMRI interface then it is theoretically possible to have the through trains run on automated routines while the single operator handles the locals.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

And what do you do with the layout when there are no crews to man her?

Work on it.

But... in reality, that's in the part of the answer I haven't typed up yet, but now will.

So, what AM I doing here? What am I about to spend all this money and time on?

The idea is to create a piece of interactive 3D art that I and my friends can experience and interact with.

So, obviously it'll really come alive when I have guests over to share it with. I really love the social aspect of this hobby. But this past year has taught me that it's important to be able to ALSO do things on your own, and I think this plan will give me that ability. I plan on having ops run sequentially, possibly with a fast clock, but when not, it happens in the order it happens. This means that, if I have 5 friends over, we can get a lot done. If it's just me? Well, maybe get ahead on switching out the next set of cars in the yard, or go do the interchange work down in New Freedom, etc...

Or, when I'm alone, I'll have plenty of projects to tackle. One of the things I've realized I really enjoy in the hobby is problem solving and learning how to do stuff. Unlike my TTRAK modules that are pretty straight forward, a layout like this will have a little of a bunch of different problems to solve: three different benchwork styles, LCC driven detection and signaling, urban scenery, rural scenery, and plenty of rolling stock to work on.

Nothing on it is going to be scary difficult, but overall the goal is to take the things I've done in the past up to the next level.

Oh, and also as a vehicle to go from a B-list model railroad celebrity to the a-list. 

[Point353]

And what do you do with the layout when there are no crews to man her?

Build more staging tracks.

[nuno81291]

Sounds like a well thought out plan to me. Thanks for the detailed post! Particularly interested to see the CTC aspect realized as that is way above my pay grade (but very interesting).

[SAH]

Good to see you have a vision for the ops in addition to the model building aspect of the layout.  Ops is the glue that holds the whole thing together.  I was a builder only for years and never thought I'd enjoy operations.  Then I tried it and was hooked.  There's nothing like getting a group of folks together to help you make your creation come alive.  Sharing the vision and watching others interact with it makes all the work worthwhile.

That said, I have a question/concern about your scheme, particularly the DS role.  If I'm reading the plan right, trains start at Windsor Street and go down the hill to New Freedom.  Trains start at New Freedom and go up the hill to Windsor Street.  There is no place to stage a meet between those two points, or am I missing something.  If there is no place to meet what does the dispatcher do?  Sure, stage helpers, give permission for the shortlines to enter the plant but aside from that . . . ?  Switch the signal to green to start the trains up or down the hill?  The drama of big time railroading, expeditiously getting priority manifests, stack trains, helpers and the like over the road in the face of oncoming traffic, is missing.  Well actually, there will be plenty of drama in the helix.  There always is.

Steve

[Ed Kapuscinski]

That said, I have a question/concern about your scheme, particularly the DS role.  If I'm reading the plan right, trains start at Windsor Street and go down the hill to New Freedom.  Trains start at New Freedom and go up the hill to Windsor Street.  There is no place to stage a meet between those two points, or am I missing something.  If there is no place to meet what does the dispatcher do?  Sure, stage helpers, give permission for the shortlines to enter the plant but aside from that . . . ?  Switch the signal to green to start the trains up or down the hill?  The drama of big time railroading, expeditiously getting priority manifests, stack trains, helpers and the like over the road in the face of oncoming traffic, is missing. 

This is a good point. I'm hoping that, even with the limited scope of the railroad, the requirement to follow the various rules for conducting transportation safely will keep them busy enough to be entertained. Yes, they're going to have to manage shortlines, etc... But they're also going to have to think about who gets to go where and when. There are two different sidings in York, plus the yard to contend with, locals and the helpers will be a pain in the butt to tie on. The NCR isn't Horseshoe Curve, so there aren't well engineered helper pockets, which means lots of talking past stop signals to get things laced up.

I have thought about ways to spice things up for the off-layout world for them too so that they have to not only think about the trains ON the layout, but also what's queued up in staging and its needs (who cares if UXC-18, a coal train to the Consol Coal terminal in Baltimore is late, but if you mess up the Broadway Limited's connecting section, you're gonna be in TROUBLE if you let him sit in New Freedom while UXC has tripped the dragger at Hanover Junction).

It'll never be as busy as Steven Mallery's but hopefully it'll still be fun enough, and if not, well, it IS pre-Ricky Gates Conrail... 🍻

Well actually, there will be plenty of drama in the helix.  There always is.

Steve

There better not be! lol

[wm3798]

I'm in agreement with @SAH   Without a passing siding, ops will be dull for the below average, ADHD prone model railroader (I'm describing myself).  Timing your work so you can hole up in a long siding to wait for the Amtrak (I guess it will be the other way round, wouldn't it?) Anyway...  That's an important element of single track railroading.

I know you want your scenic ethos to be a lazy single track running through the brambles, but if that's the case, why not model the Stewartstown in its entirety?

If you want to be hauling time freight in profitable volumes, you have to accommodate two way traffic.

You could do what I did and hide your longest siding in a recessed area so it doesn't spoil the illusion of your single track line, but it would retain it's functionality as point of interest operationally.



Lee

[Ed Kapuscinski]

You do make some good points. So far I've gone back and forth on adding a passing siding somewhere mid-grade. On one hand, I like the fact that the grade IS the bottleneck AND the fact that, at 667 inches long, it's a good 5 train lengths long. That feels like it's about right for the run between "places" for a mainline run.

That said, I know having another mid-grade "activity" would definitely increase the complexity of things.

Right now, the whole peninsula is a single level. I'm currently noodling on ways to double deck that, stretch the run out further, and throw a siding in. The great irony is that if I stretch things out I lower the grade. However, I think I can easily solve that by adding some flat spaces in there too, for even more train handling challenges.

More thoughts to follow. Thanks boys!

[SAH]

You can preserve the single track railroad feel by making the passing siding visually distinct from the main.  Different profile, elevation, ballast color and such.

Five train lengths is enough length to add a siding for meets.  All to the better if you can make the section longer.

The length of the passing siding also becomes another variable in the DS calculations.  Can each of the opposing trains fit into the siding?  If not, choices have to be made.  Is that hopper train loads or MTYs.  You don't want to stop a loaded coal train going up the hill if you can help it. 

I regularly took a stint as DS on two N scale railroads that featured trips over the mountain as an operating constraint.  Both had passing sidings at the bottom, top and midway of the hill.  Both were great fun to operate.  Both also had more real estate beyond the hill in both directions, which you do not have.  It is possible to distill the operations of railroading on a grade to the bare minimum and I think your plan does that.  You need that mid grade passing siding though.  The challenge for everybody involved goes up significantly.  In my mind that equals more fun.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Look what you monsters have made me do...

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[nuno81291]

If your gonna go all in you may as well go all in.  looks like a maximized mainline run to me!