The New Northern Central

[davefoxx]

So there's been a lot of really interesting discussion about bench work, but here's my question: has anyone actually had problems with the traditional approach?

Not me.  I’ve built a number of layouts with wood construction.  I’ve never sealed the wood and have had no problems.  My layouts have been in basements with a lot of fluctuation in humidity through the seasons.  My current layout is 2” foam on 1/4” plywood over 1”x2” framing on L-girders.  Going on four years, and all’s well.

DFF

[Dave V]

So there's been a lot of really interesting discussion about bench work, but here's my question: has anyone actually had problems with the traditional approach?

The old Juniaia Division hollow core door developed a significant sag to the point where I was looking into lightweight metal components to fix the sag.  I never came up with a good idea that could have restored the door’s profile.

[CRL]

Here’s the only issues I’ve had... with track that is. 😉

Had a HCD sag on the middle between the legs,

Popped the “movable” rail on some old Atlas flex track that was exposed to direct sunlight and got really hot.

I’ve really had zero problems since I started gluing my track down with Liquid Nails for Projects onto the foam sub roadbed. I think there may be enough inherent “give” in the foam to absorb the normal expansion & contraction. I also use Peco code 55 which is bulletproof.

[C855B]

Yeah, problems on two layouts in my early MRR life, both were HO clubs, and both were in unconditioned spaces and had mixes of hand-laid and commercial flex. First layout was prone to kinks in a couple of areas, and liked to pop the spikes on the inside of a curve in one spot... in a tunnel, of course. The other liked to pop one rail vertically in a couple of places on a long bit of tangent. That one was fixable by cutting gaps. The first layout was evicted from the space before we could get serious about fixes.

[MDW]

So there's been a lot of really interesting discussion about bench work, but here's my question: has anyone actually had problems with the traditional approach?

Hmmmmmm.
2 layouts, 6 years,  humid summers, no problems yet.

Michel

[SAH]

My assumption @Ed Kapuscinski is that where you show the 1x3 dimensional lumber, that is a box, correct? 
Front and back and girders on the brackets?

That is the way I would do it if employing your technique.

Dang this thread moves fast.

I agree with Bryan about front and back box members.  As a minimum use 1/4" ply ripped to the height dimension of the 1x3 and whatever you decide on for the top.  MUCH better stability.  Speaking from experience on this one.  You can use whatever you wish for the front fascia.  As for depth under the base ply, don't forget about your turnout operator mechanism, if you plan to use one of course.  3" clearance for Bluepoints.  4" for Tortoise if mounted in the traditional manner.  Paint the bottom white too, especially if there is a deck below.  Better light reflection.

Are you SURE you don't want to put some foam, say 1/2" depth variety, on top?  It makes adding land forms very easy.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I'm sure about the lack of foam in the yard section. It's almost all track there and the surroundings are really flat.

Once I get out of town though, things will be very different.

What's the story between 3/4 ply being so much better than dimensional lumber? Keep in mind these pieces are going to be attached to metal brackets for 80% of their length.

[davefoxx]

Go shopping for dimensional lumber, and you’ll figure out the answer to that question, Ed.  It takes a lot of sorting to find good pieces.  Some folks take 3/4” plywood and rip 1”x3” or 1”x4” to get straight, stable framing lumber for their layouts.  In fact, I went looking for lumber to start my On30 ET&WNC layout and walked away, because there wasn’t good quality on that day.

That said, I think your original plan for the yard benchwork will work fine.

DFF

[C855B]

What's the story between 3/4 ply being so much better than dimensional lumber? ...

White-wood (pine, fir, spruce) dimensional lumber is especially subject to length and cross-section variances with humidity. Ever have a house with a door that stuck or wouldn't close when it was humid? Or unseasonably hot or cold? There you have it.

Cabinet-grade 3/4" alternates the grain direction in the plies so they somewhat cancel each other out, reducing (but not eliminating!) the extent of the dimensional changes. Also, the better grades are mostly hardwood or a least tight-grained woods, which are less subject to humidity.

Or something like that.

[CodyO]

Ed,
You saw how I built mine since I brought it over and had it sitting on top of coal country.

3/4" Ply ripped down and assembled into a module frame with a 1/2" top.
Lightweight but stable and hasn't had issues with wrapping.
I'd recommend taking this approach for the right side of your plan, and you know I got the tools and I'm willing to help.

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[Brian M]

Ed,
Like most of us on here, I've been reading this thread with plenty of interest to see what you're thinking for a layout plan and how it might develop.  At the risk of being another voice from the peanut gallery (thinking of my own, not others), I have to say that putting a complex helix in front of the main electrical panel feels like an invitation for a major headache.  How would access to the panel be provided for an electrician in the case that one needs to get to it?  Also, it would seem like no matter how well you try to seal up the staging yard and helix, having trains in the same room as the dryer will end up providing plenty of opportunities for cleaning dryer lint dust from your rolling stock and more importantly, the insides of your locomotives.

I'm an engineer, so I can't help but consider design alternatives, and have been noodling on your track plan in the back of my head, trying to think of an alternative to putting the trains in the laundry/utility room.  My track CAD skills aren't that great, so you'll have to excuse the Power Point engineering, but I hope these pictures at least get my concept across.  I know you've got a pole to avoid, but it would seem like you could wrap Windsor St yard around the pole, and put it out on a peninsula.  Since you've already decided to include two helixes (helixi, helix-ies, what's the plural for helix anyway?), I've kept one at either end of the two levels.  The one in the upper right could connect Windsor St to a lower level staging yard, although I think this staging would be below the lower level, so it would be kind of a long run in the helix.  The other helix would just connect the upper and lower levels.  Don't know if you'd have any kind of grade on the mainline, but if you do, that could help to reduce the number of turns needed in the helix in the lower left.  As I mentioned, you could put a staging level below the lower level.  Another staging possibility would be to put a small staging yard above the upper level, which is what would feed into Windsor St yard.  This is a similar concept that Tony Koester uses, where his upper most staging is above his upper level.  Naturally you'd want to keep benchwork in front of the upper right helix to a minimal depth so that crawling in to access the helix wouldn't be too bad.

And since this is all just notional Power Point engineering, I don't know if all of the dimensions would work out for what you want to achieve, such as the length of the yards, but it looks like it could be close.  Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out for you to think about as an alternative to buying a new washing machine and moving the existing hookups, etc.

-Brian.

Upper level:


Lower level:

[Philip H]

Ya know @Ed Kapuscinski - @Brian M 's plan doesn't suck . . . . thought it might need a couple realignments for the room - you really need to post a blank as-built sketch so folks understand all it's quirks.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

I appreciate the thoughts, but I can't see it in my mind's eye.

I spent some time this weekend getting things ready.

Yes, the old doors are still up, but I cleaned most of them off (and the still busy one will remain as a workspace for the beginning of construction.

Here's a panorama of the layout room, taken from the steps. For orientation purposes, the helix will be on the right.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ok. One of the first things I need to do is replace that nonfunctional window with one that actually works.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/American-Craftsman-31-in-x-17-in-70-Series-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-White-Vinyl-Window-with-Buck-Frame-70-SLIDER-BUCK/203157487

Anyone installed one of these? Seems pretty straight forward. Words of wisdom?

[davefoxx]

Ok. One of the first things I need to do is replace that nonfunctional window with one that actually works.

Why?  Nobody's crawling out that window in the event of an emergency, nor does that count as egress to make living space legal.  And the two levels of the layout will be in the way, preventing access to that window.  I doubt you're planning on using it to vent your spray booth, because, again, the layout will be in the way.  What's your logic?

DFF