Author Topic: So now that the 20th CL is out...  (Read 2433 times)

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cjm413

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2020, 04:58:52 PM »
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I would say yes (i.e. ditch them).  That said, I'm in decumulation mode, which means when I get something new I generally try to offload at least as much "stuff."  Now that you have a prototype NYC name train, why would you want to hang on to non-prototypical stuff?  Aren't those old sets the ones without car numbers/names?

Kato only released one version of one NYC train.   Those older cars may be useful stand-ins for other TCL consists and/or other NYC trains.

cjm413

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2020, 05:09:07 PM »
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altohorn25

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2020, 06:45:22 PM »
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A business acquaintance told me that a baggage car was added to the consist when the railroad realized passengers’ luggage was too big for the roomettes. I still have the original smoothside NYC add-on set, I can test the color match but I don’t know the prototype for the baggage. I doubt it’s NYC though. I did compare the current TCL RPO with the Rapido baggage, which I have in NYC TTG and is prototypical. Unfortunately there is a vast difference in the color/hue of the light gray stripe.

(Attachment Link)

The kato baggage car is a UP prototype.
Nate Pierce
Modutrak - Wisconsin Division
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w neal

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2020, 11:20:33 AM »
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Got em out on the table at a show at the moment. We'll see w'happens. If they go, they go.

From the on-line pictures of Kato's 20CL, the old versions are a very close match in paint shades, but maybe its just me.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2020, 12:02:39 PM by w neal »
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jargonlet

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2020, 01:59:21 AM »
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Walthers PS coach is probably a closer match than the smaller windows on the Kato 44 seat coach.

If I remember right, I thought the walthers coach was a nyc prototype.

thomasjmdavis

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2020, 09:54:46 AM »
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I did compare the current TCL RPO with the Rapido baggage, which I have in NYC TTG and is prototypical. Unfortunately there is a vast difference in the color/hue of the light gray stripe.

(Attachment Link)
Before I get started, let me confess that I am not a NYC expert.  When I saw the comment, I went looking for NYC info, with the thought I might pick up one of the Rapido cars for use in an ATSF Fast Mail or other interchange.  But based on what I can find, NYC only had one series of streamlined baggage cars (ACF built 9100-9199), and they have some differences from the Rapido car.  Let me also note that I have no objection to using "best available ready to run car" and do it all the time myself.  I have a WoT heavyweight and a couple of the Walthers (now Lowell Smith) baggage cars standing in for NYC cars.

This is a small quibble, but before "the Rapido baggage is prototypical for NYC" becomes "canonical" in the N scale world, I feel obligated to point out that the Rapido model is a CN car, and while the NYC cars are similar (same door sizes, end doors), the NYC has different windows in the baggage doors, and greater space between the doors (22' on the NYC vs 12' on the CN car).
http://www.cwrailway.ca/cnrha.ca/sites/default/files/Passenger%20car%20drawings/baggage/CN%209212=9302_BE-73-H_wht_F_Aug58b.jpg
CN end door version:http://www.cwrailway.ca/cnrha.ca/sites/default/files/Passenger%20car%20drawings/baggage/CN%209228-9232_BA-73-J_blk_A_nd%20ps.jpg
NYC:http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-2180.jpg
 
That said, doors sizes, end doors and general appearance do make the Rapido much closer to the NYC car than anything else readily available.  Truth be told, back in the day, I sent an email to Rapido to try to talk them into doing the NYC, GTW, or Erie cars (similar to one another in size and door spacing, with window and end door variations), because I had photos of a similar car in CN paint- which turned out to be ex-GTW, not part of a larger series of CN cars (as, I think, our late friend Mike McGrattan pointed out to me in a kind reply).
Tom D.

SF Chief

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2020, 10:44:56 AM »
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Now that you have a prototype NYC name train, why would you want to hang on to non-prototypical stuff?  Aren't those old sets the ones without car numbers/names?
You might keep the observation car on the Kato smooth side set--it was accurate for the NYC. According to the 1993 Richard Cook book on the 20th Century Ltd and other sources, Pullman made this 2 bedroom-1 compartment-1 drawing room-buffet-25 seat lounge style of car in 1939-40 for both the NYC and Southern Pacific.  The NYC had three of these River class cars--the Genesee River, Maumee River and Wabash River--which it used on its Southwest Limited between New York City and St Louis.  During WWII the cars were assigned to the 20th Century because wartime regulations required more passenger accommodation space than the Island class observation cars built for the 1938 streamlined version of the 20th Century.

After the war these River class cars occasionally ran on extra sections of the 20th Century, which would make it prototypical to exchange the observation cars on the Kato sets. Second sections of the TCL, however, became rare after the early 1950s.  In 1956 NYC sold the three River class cars to the B&O, which retained their names used them on its National Limited between Baltimore and St Louis.  The two SP cars of this type were used on the Lark--one was wrecked in 1942 and replaced by another car of the same type that had been used by Pullman as a demonstrator. It had been exhibited at the 1940 NY World's Fair as "American Milemaster".

One more thing:  The N-scale streamlined observation car sold by Intermountain is based on exactly the same prototype as the Kato smoothside observation. That is a beautiful model.

w neal

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2020, 11:29:08 AM »
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Eh, the cars were looked at a few times yesterday, but no sales. In the collection they stay. Till next show...
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cjm413

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2020, 12:35:52 PM »
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If I remember right, I thought the walthers coach was a nyc prototype.

I was referring to the Walthers smoothside PS coach as a stand-in since it is in the same TTG paint as the Kato 44 seat coach

Walthers corrugated PS coach is good for NYC

« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 01:14:00 PM by cjm413 »

thomasjmdavis

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2020, 03:30:45 PM »
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I was referring to the Walthers smoothside PS coach as a stand-in since it is in the same TTG paint as the Kato 44 seat coach

Walthers corrugated PS coach is good for NYC
I think the Walthers smoothside coach is based on some NYC coaches that had fluting removed in the 1960s.  So not necessarily a stand in, depending on when.

In any case, both the smoothside and corrugated make good stand ins as the window patterns are similar to cars on several railroads.
Tom D.

Mark5

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2020, 07:14:26 PM »
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I think the Walthers smoothside coach is based on some NYC coaches that had fluting removed in the 1960s. 

From Wally:

"Based on Plan #7484, the Walthers Pullman-Standard 64-Seat Coaches ... "

"With big plans for its post-war streamliner fleet, the New York Central placed an order for 153 coaches with Pullman-Standard in May 1944. Deliveries of the cars (plan #7484) began in February and continued through October of 1946. At the time, this was the largest equipment order delivered within a single year. Although intended for general service, the cars were delivered with fluted sides that would allow them to be used with Budd cars."


Mark

cjm413

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2020, 10:21:15 AM »
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I think the Walthers smoothside coach is based on some NYC coaches that had fluting removed in the 1960s.  So not necessarily a stand in, depending on when.

In any case, both the smoothside and corrugated make good stand ins as the window patterns are similar to cars on several railroads.

Good catch - the windows do appear to match up with the NYC PS coaches that had the fluting removed

peteski

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2020, 05:31:24 PM »
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So the stainless fluting on the passenger cars was just decoration?  I thought it was actually the skin of the car itself.
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CBQ Fan

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2020, 05:53:07 PM »
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So the stainless fluting on the passenger cars was just decoration?  I thought it was actually the skin of the car itself.

Only the Budd cars were integral to the structure. The Pullman cars were a cosmetic option to match the look of Budd.  I have to imagine employees of Pullman had a bit of a bitter taste in their mouth having to match Budd!
Brian

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thomasjmdavis

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Re: So now that the 20th CL is out...
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2020, 12:13:06 AM »
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Generally, Pullman Standard stainless fluting was applied over the Corten steel sides- essentially all PS cars were smoothside cars, with some then getting stainless fluting applied over.  The method resulted in a lot of rust and corrosion issues, because water could become trapped between the steel and stainless steel layers.  Prewar cars were particularly prone to this, but it was also found even after postwar improvements in construction.  As with skirting, once the fluting was removed for maintenance or repair, it was often just left off.  A few roads like Santa Fe, which relied on fluted stainless cars almost as a trademark, had rigorous maintenance schedules for their cars in order to maintain their structural integrity along with the "looks".

As CBQ Fan said, Budd's construction method was different and more durable.  Budd invented and patented "shotwelding" which allowed them to efficiently weld their stainless panels directly to the structural framework of the car, and weld seams- creating a more watertight car, and being all stainless, was much less prone to rust or corrosion.
Tom D.