Heavyweight RPO options

[thomasjmdavis]

I was sort of hoping their might be a "single" 4 wheel truck RPO for September, but no such luck, unless I missed it in the latest newsletter.
https://www.micro-trains.com/publicfiles/monthly/MN2009.pdf
 I also wish that Atlas Parts Dept would stock shells for their RPO- so I could cut and paste the Atlas sides to the MTL car and get the best of both worlds.

[bbussey]

Radius of 11” is tight for any passenger equipment. If you have easements into those tight curves however, the RPO and other heavyweight equipment should navigate a radius that tight.

I didn’t supply data on the RPO, yet MTL appears to have worked off of builder’s drawings or drawings of the as-built configuration of the prototype. Ironically, New Haven modified the window configuration shortly after acquiring the cars.

The new single-window-coach four-wheel trucks may fit your requirements, and may have been the truck that was used for the ATSF set.

[Sokramiketes]

In pursuit of the same car, I chose the new Atlas car, lettered in ATSF already, and added the sill and four wheel trucks.

[thomasjmdavis]

Radius of 11” is tight for any passenger equipment. If you have easements into those tight curves however, the RPO and other heavyweight equipment should navigate a radius that tight.

I didn’t supply data on the RPO, yet MTL appears to have worked off of builder’s drawings or drawings of the as-built configuration of the prototype. Ironically, New Haven modified the window configuration shortly after acquiring the cars.

The new single-window-coach four-wheel trucks may fit your requirements, and may have been the truck that was used for the ATSF set.

In my own defense, Spookshow's website also shows CB&Q as the prototype and my recollection is that it was a common rumor at the time the RPOs first came out.  In any case, the basic window configuration and design elements were common to many roads in the 1913 to about 1920 time frame.   As Bryan noted about the NH car, many of these cars were rebuilt to other door/window configurations over the years- so few looked like the model by 1950s.  Here is a list I saved from Jerry Laboda's N Scale Varnish Guide, with notes on variations. The formatting is lost in translation, but I will try to make it as clean a copy as I can.
ROAD/#                                BUILDER      DATE            NOTES
B&O 78 - 91                        PULL              1913            rebuilt with five windows per side
CP 3750 - 3776                ——               1918            3 - 2/2 - 4 window pattern, to 3 - 2/2 - 3
CB&Q 2305 - 2315              ACF              1914            3 - 2/2 - 3 window pattern
CB&Q 2316 - 2319               ACF              1916   
CB&Q 2320 - 2324               ACF              1917   
GTW 9683 - 9685, 9695 - 9699    ——   ——   3 - 2/2 - 3 window pattern
GN 1, 2, 7 - 12, 14, 17, 21, 22    B&S   1914           to baggage - mail 183 , 185 , 192, 191, 190, 181, 182, 184, 188 and 189, 186, 187 in '27
GN 3 - 6, 13, 15, 19, 20       B&S              1914           rblt. to baggage - express - 15' mail 44 - 51
GN 23 - 36                         PULL              1914           24, 26, 27, 29, 31:1, 33:1 to storage mail 257, 258, 256, 254, 255, 253; 23, 28 to 31:2, 33:2
IC 95 - 105                         PULL              1918           Harriman-body on fishbelly underframe
IC 300                                PULL        ——                   used as baggage - express - mail
MEC 608 - 612                ——              ——           rblt. to five windows and four wheel trucks; 608, 610 and 612 to NH ('63) #s???
MKT 2900, 2901                 ——              ——           Re# 32, 31
MKT 34, 35                         ——              ——   
M&StL 750, 751                  PULL              1914        to C&EI baggage - mail 69, 68 ('37-'38); to baggage - express 115, 114 ('47-'48); sold to TP&W after retirement for MofW service
NC&StL 500 - 510               PULL              1914           4 cars to baggage - mail 1020 - 1023; others rblt. to five window; most to L&N
NYC 3700 - 3704               PSC               1914            to 4854 - 4858 (rblt. to 4 window
NYC 3758 - 3761               ACF                1914            to 4859 - 4862 (rblt. to 4 window)
NYC 3762 - 3771               PSC                1913            4-wheel trucks; to 4863 - 4872 (rblt. to 4 window)
NYC/B&A 922 - 929       LCC                1914            to 4915  4919 (rblt. to 4 window)
NYC/B&A 930 - 933       PSC                1913            to 4920  4923 (rblt. to 4 window)
NYC/B&A 934 - 936       NYC               1917            4-wheel trucks; to 4924  4926 (rblt. to 4 window)
NYC/B&A 924                LCC               1913             4 wheel trucks; to B&A baggage 828, 829; to NYC 8828, 8829
NYC/B&A 937                NYC                1917            4-wheel trucks; to B&A baggage 830; to NYC 8830
NYC/CCC&StL 66 - 75       LCC               1913            4-wheel trucks; to NYC 4893 - 4902; three cars rblt. to baggage - express 7395 - 7397 (ex-???)
NYC/LS&MC 719 - 722       ACF               1914            6-wheel trucks; disposition???
NYC/LS&MC 748 - 757        ACF               1914            6-wheel trucks; disposition???
NH 3263 - 3284               PULL               1917            rblt. to 4 window
      correction- LCC     1913-1914  per Bryan Bussey comment below, also have a photo of a NH car in my copy of Train Shed Cyclopedia #65, caption verifies LCC
NP 90 - 99                        ???               ???             rblt. to Storage Mail
PM 105, 106                        ACF                1917            4-wheel trucks; to C&O 103, 104
SP 4261                                 ——                 ——            Harriman
UP 2056 - 2061                 PULL                 1911-1914   Harriman ; Re# 1429 - 1432, 1455, 1456; to storage mail
UP/OSL 325 - 333                 PULL                 1913-1914   Harriman ; Re# OSL 2108 - 2116; 2116 Re# OSL 1460
UP/OSL 335 - 339                 PULL                 1913-1914   Harriman ; Re# OSL 2118 - 2122; 2119 - 2122 Re# OSL 1461 - 1464
UP/OSL 2330                         PULL                  1914     Harriman ; Re# OSL 1465
UP/OWRR&N 2151, 2152, 2154, 2157 - 2160    PULL   1913-1914   Harriman ; Re# OWRR&N 1470 - 1476; to storage mail

Abbreviations:

 ACF - American Car & Foundry    LCC - Laconia Car Co.    PULL - Pullman    rblt. - rebuilt
 B&S - Barney & Smith    PSC - Pressed Steel Car Co.

To that list of Jerry's I will add Wabash cars 161-182 built by ACF 1913-1916   These cars were mostly rebuilt to baggage-mail (30' RPO apt, 30' baggage), I think in the 1920s.  162, 167, 175 and 179 served until the 1960s as full RPOs, but were rebuilt early on to a configuration with the 6 windows together, more similar to the Atlas car.   C&EI also had a pair for which I don't have original numbers, but became baggage mail 64&65 in 1930s, 64 went to work service as W-2 in 1947, and 65 was renumbered 113.

[Nick Lorusso]

When I step back an era that I'm unfamiliar with I learn a lot, and get surprised.

I've done a full heavyweight consist to go with my two ATSF brass steamers, nothing prototype-specific but not completely inaccurate either.

I've wanted to add an RPO, finally found an Undec MT RPO in less-than perfect condition for a low price.

Studying this car and testing it have resulted in a bunch of observations.    First, this thing hates curves.    I have four MT 85' heavyweights with the medium-profile flanges, they work fine around my 11" reverse loop, body mounts and all.    Not this car.   It binds up in two places, the trucks bind against the mail door stirrups, and the lead axles of the 6-wheel trucks grind into the coupler box.  I thought I'd have no problem with a 'shorty' car and this one is the worst of the bunch.    It jams right up.   

Now that I'm looking at ATSF prototypes, while the Pullman bodies were at least similar,  ATSF didn't seem to use six-wheel trucks under any of its cars, which is half my problem anyway.  https://www.psrm.org/trains/passenger/atsf-74/     Really looks like I want a long-wheelbase, 4-axle Pullman design, and move the bolster well back.  Yeah, that's a chore.

That side-sill beam so typical of ATSF was done nicely by the M&R car sides version that is now apparently no longer made.  If I'm wrong, tell me, but it looks like that stopped around 2012.    So I'm resigned to using/modifying the MT one, and if that means moving bolsters and changing trucks and doing 'stuff' I'm OK with that.   Doesn't have to be perfect, but I can't leave it the way it is anyway.   May as well tweak it closer.

I'm still puzzled though, about the use of 6-wheel trucks under this model, and wondering if that's even typical for a 60' car.   Doesn't appear right for ATSF at least.

Atlas Trainman line has a 60' RPO closer than MTL to ATSF prototype..
https://shop.atlasrr.com/c-1466-n168.aspx

[bbussey]

ROAD/#                                BUILDER      DATE            NOTES
NH 3263 - 3284                PULL               1917            rblt. to 4 window

This is the correct New Haven number series for the MTL model.  But they were built by Laconia Car Company in 1913 and 1914.

[thomasjmdavis]

This is the correct New Haven number series for the MTL model.  But they were built by Laconia Car Company in 1913 and 1914.

Thanks -  I should have caught that myself given the conversation earlier in this thread, plus I had checked the photo from Train Shed Cyc.

[SkipGear]

The 4 wheel trucks should both solve your problem and make it more ATSF like. I just bought a batch of the new 4 and 6 wheel trucks to replace the horrid trucks on the Atlas cmshorty heavyweight set. They fit perfectly, but now I have to body mount couplers on everthing.

[Mark5]

Here is a list I saved from Jerry Laboda's N Scale Varnish Guide, with notes on variations.

Odd that Jerry's list would be incomplete - he was very knowledgeable!

N&W 90-99, 6 window, Bethlehem Steel, 1937

These had a very different roof from most "heavyweights"! https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=168757

Mark

[thomasjmdavis]

Jerry's list was not so much incomplete as a work in progress. And the error on car builder may be the result of some copying error on my part, or Over the years, several of us contributed information when we found it.  The two major issues I've run across in trying to research head end cars generally and RPOs in particular, are that there were many builders, including small companies (these RPOs are the only reference I've ever seen to the "Laconia Car Company"- reading up on them, at various times they built street cars, railway head end cars, and motorboats, and closed in 1928- but that is just Wiki stuff, so NH or NYC folks here might have more info).  And they were frequently modified to keep up with modernizing post office practices.  By the 1930s, a great number of the cars of this design had been converted to mail-baggage or to 4, 5, or 6 window designs that were similar to the Atlas car.  In many cases, these modifications happened early in the life of the cars- and most or all surviving photos show the cars in modified form.  For example, the Wabash cars I mentioned.  Every photo I have in books, or have found online, shows the cars as 6 window cars.  The only reason I know they were originally the configuration of the MT car is that I bought a back issue of the Banner (Fall 96- the magazine of the Wabash Railroad Historical Society) dedicated to Wabash head end cars which included builder's photos of 2 of the cars (in the configuration of the MT car) in addition to photos of the cars in the 50s and 60s in modified form.

[Mark5]

To that list of Jerry's I will add Wabash cars 161-182 built by ACF 1913-1916   These cars were mostly rebuilt to baggage-mail (30' RPO apt, 30' baggage), I think in the 1920s.  162, 167, 175 and 179 served until the 1960s as full RPOs, but were rebuilt early on to a configuration with the 6 windows together, more similar to the Atlas car.   

I could not find any pics of these, but I am pretty sure some survived to N&W.

I did find this Wabash paint diagram from 1928 (showing six windows): https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=103148

Mark

[thomasjmdavis]

I suppose when discussing windows on RPOs, we need to define terms a bit.  The Wabash diagram has 6 windows, but in a 3+3 arrangement (the other side is 2+4) - as you see on the MTL RPO (it is 3+3 on one side, and 2+4 on the other side).  The Atlas models a car that is 6 windows together (about 2' apart, IIRC), and referred to as 6-0 or 6+0 by some authors.  Only 4 of the Wabash cars survived as full RPOs and after remodeling bore a closer resemblance to the Atlas car (although a bit different in that windows 4,5,6 are spaced 6" closer together than windows 1,2,3) .

The official MTL photo of the 3+3 side of their RPO


The other side of the MTL is on the left in 2+4 window arrangement (stand in lettered for GTW- should have 1 window blanked to be 3+2......on my someday list).  Atlas on right with 6 windows grouped together.


This one has ATSF RPO (M&R sides on MTL core with Pecos River trucks-still needs mail hook and other details to be added) compared to Atlas and MTL.

[bbussey]

New Haven modified the 3-3 side of their Laconia RPOs to mirror the other side, basically changing them to a 4-2/2-4 arrangement.

[randgust]

Well, you guys have fun fighting it out, I'm going to put my Pullman MDC four-wheel trucks under my used Atlas undec car and either relocate or fab a bolster.    The Atlas might be closer on the windows but I still have the same truck problem, although putting the stirrups ON the truck is one way to attack it.    Either way it's a project. 

I held out for a long time until I found a bargain-basement MT car in less-than-pristine condition, when it comes to a project like this I'm just plain cheap.   For a 'Trainman' car that's most certainly not 'cheap' just to solve a window issue.

Pretty much the entire train was patiently produced out of reject and damaged Rivarossi and MT cars, just waiting it out.   Diner was the toughest to find, and the full baggage.  Biggest investment so far was getting the Shapeway steps and bodymounts on the Rivarossi cars, but I'm still so cheap I put MT wheels in the Rivarossi trucks, hacked off the truck-mount couplers.

If I ever get my PRR D16 built you can watch me struggle to do my PRR local, I may be more exacting on that consist.

[randgust]

Quick update on what I'm tinkering with.   The 4-wheel, long wheelbase Pullman trucks I had turned out to be Bachmann, not MDC/Athearn.   The plastic wheels in those turned out to be a real POS, had to go.   They were an odd axle length too - .545, but I had a set of surprisingly good metal wheels out of a Bachmann old-timer coach truck that fit well and had good rolling qualities that fit right in.

Thanks Mark Peterson (Spookshow) for your truck guide because I couldn't positively identify what I had there.   I still don't know where I got it from, I'm not even sure what Bachmann cars ever had them that I would have ever ended up with.   I really prefer the MDC/Athearn trucks as I've used those before replacing old Rapido trucks but I can't find any remaining source of them, and I'll make this work.   The truck frames are OK now that I got rid of those awful plastic wheels.  And the Bachmann metal wheels were good, but wow, were they narrow in gauge and had to be pressed wider.

I'm assuming that M&R sides never re-emerged here either.