Unitrack turnouts issue.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Nope. This crotchety old dude would want to use said crossovers. That's why they are there.

Then you're not that crotchety old dude.

[chicken45]

Did you test it before painting and gluing?
Did you set the bottom screw to non-power routing, and the frog to ‘powered’?

I tested after painting, but given the severity of what was involved to make the connection, I think it was just borked to begin with. I had to press down pretty hard just to get a connection from it. I did a great job masking it and I didn't apply the paint with a firehouse, so IF somehow some overspray got in there, it wouldn't have been a lot. I'm sure it's possible, but again, I had to press down pretty hard to make contact, so it was likely mechanical in some way. It was liek the whole top of the conenction plate was dead: the clips, the rail, everything. I got power from the underside, though.

I did triple check the screws, they were all correct, and the rest of the turnouts work great!

[chicken45]

Nope. This crotchety old dude would want to use said crossovers. That's why they are there.

Me too! One problem I found though...there's not a lot of breathing room on far turnouts. I can back up an NW2 and not much else before I'm off the cliff...until I make more modules.

"Well, ya know the Pennsy woulda used much longer turnouts so they could make the corssover at track speed.  And where are all the linakges for the interlockings?  Tsk tsk.  Now, the layout I operate on would have that all correct."  Meanwhile, the dude has a recently purchased unboxed Bachmann warbonnet in his hand with Rapido couplers and the price tag is stuck to the body.  It'll be going home to a shelf full of similar purchases that overlook the space where someday there'll be a layout...but someday never comes.

Gotta love those guys.

LOL. The speed limit was pretty low at that interlocking anyways so they can suck it! Ha! Ha!

[MK]

Joking aside, is it common to switch tracks on T-Track while running?  I mean I've only ever seen them used as uni-directional racetracks (and I'm not throwing stones because 95% of the time that's all I did with the Juniata Division) because to do otherwise would invite cornfield meets.  Or am I wrong on that?

Still, I totally understand the internal need to have everything working correctly even if it doesn't need to.

Dave, we do use them.  It depends on how the layout is setup.  On slow days where many members can't bring their modules for a show, the big yard inevitably ends up on the inner yellow.  Now you need (cross) switches to get your consist from the yard to the outer red and vice versa.

If many members show up then we can put a yard on the inner yellow and outer red and we rarely cross over.

[Dave V]

Dave, we do use them.  It depends on how the layout is setup.  On slow days where many members can't bring their modules for a show, the big yard inevitably ends up on the inner yellow.  Now you need (cross) switches to get your consist from the yard to the outer red and vice versa.

If many members show up then we can put a yard on the inner yellow and outer red and we rarely cross over.

It's been a while since I've seen a T-Trak setup.  I'm not aware of any T-Trak clubs in Colorado.  I know there's a group that's set up at the Rocky Mountain Train Show at the Denver Mart, but I haven't been there in a few years.  We do have a local NTrak club in COS, but I don't know if they do T-Trak.

Gotta be honest...  I'm semi-tempted to do something with T-Trak.  I actually saved a bit of my Pennsy stuff including both K-4s and all of my heavyweights (other than the RPO that went with the Boradway Limited from Kato) so I could do something Pennsy.  But without a local org, I'm probably not going to do anything with it.

As it is I'm not really doing much with the SlimRail HOn3 module I'm working on...allegedly.

[fire5506]

After you get the new one installed, you can work on the bad one and see what the real problem was. Let us know what you find.

[Point353]

It's been a while since I've seen a T-Trak setup.  I'm not aware of any T-Trak clubs in Colorado.  I know there's a group that's set up at the Rocky Mountain Train Show at the Denver Mart, but I haven't been there in a few years.  We do have a local NTrak club in COS, but I don't know if they do T-Trak.
Gotta be honest...  I'm semi-tempted to do something with T-Trak.  I actually saved a bit of my Pennsy stuff including both K-4s and all of my heavyweights (other than the RPO that went with the Boradway Limited from Kato) so I could do something Pennsy.  But without a local org, I'm probably not going to do anything with it.

There is some T-TRAK activity at the Colorado Model Railroad Museum. You might inquire there as to who is involved with organizing it.
https://www.cmrm.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/CMRM-Spring-2019-Newsletter.pdf (pages 6-7)

[robert3985]

Hey guys!
I’m having an issue with my Kato crossover. 

The pivot point for one of the switch points Seems loose. 
How does one remedy this?
Here’s a pic with me pointing to the loose connection. 
(Attachment Link)

Although I'm aware that the photo of the Kato Unitrack point rail heel and hinge doesn't show up in the quote, I am totally baffled as to why this part of the Kato Unitrack crossover is so effing complex!  I hand-lay my turnouts and the point rail heels and the hinges take me about ten minutes to get right, install and solder.  So far, I've never had one break or not function properly.  If it did, I certainly wouldn't have to replace the whole turnout to fix it, and it might take me another ten minutes to plug in my resistance soldering station, desolder everything, install the new hinge...and repaint it.

Photo (1) - Point rail heel hinges on my Code 55 turnouts using Proto87Stores etched hinges:


I am not going to attempt to reason why a manufacturer would make such a simple mechanism so ridiculously complex.

Just sayin'...and still scratchin' my head! 

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

Although I'm aware that the photo of the Kato Unitrack point rail heel and hinge doesn't show up in the quote, I am totally baffled as to why this part of the Kato Unitrack crossover is so effing complex!
. . .
I am not going to attempt to reason why a manufacturer would make such a simple mechanism so ridiculously complex.

Just sayin'...and still scratchin' my head! 

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

While I'm a huge Kato fanboy, I have to admit that they sometimes over-engineer their products.

[alhoop]

I had a Kato #4 turnout go bad - one of the post 'ear' that is swaged over the movable rail broke. I bought a new one.
As far as  repairing a turnout I doubt if 1%  of users could do it and only  even less very small % owns a resistance soldering unit.
If a handlaid turnout is taken up and reinstalled daily(one of the selling points of Uni-Track), I doubt it would last very long.
Kato was very smart to over-engineer their Uni-Track system.
Regards
Al

[robert3985]

I had a Kato #4 turnout go bad - one of the post 'ear' that is swaged over the movable rail broke. I bought a new one.
As far as  repairing a turnout I doubt if 1%  of users could do it and only  even less very small % owns a resistance soldering unit.
If a handnlaid turnout is taken up and reinstalled daily(one of the selling points of Uni-Track), I doubt it would last very long.
Kato was very smart to over-engineer their Uni-Track system.
Regards
Al

Oh FUN!  Let's argue about hand-laying turnouts and Kato Unitrack! 

I teach N-scale turnout construction periodically to those who have an interest in it.  For my clinics, I use my old 35 watt Radio Shack soldering iron, and recommend to those who don't know how to solder who are coming to the clinic to buy something equivalent.  100% of those who finish my clinics learn how to make turnouts on the bench by soldering to PCB ties, and how to repair them in-place, and not a single one of them is a rocket scientist.  Since I haven't taken a poll, nor have I read a poll that gives any indication of what percentage of model railroaders know how to solder, or who owns a soldering iron...I won't make a claim as to what percentage of all of us know how to solder, nor what kind of soldering tools we use.

What poll or fact-finding information did you read to make your 1% claim? 

One thing is certain however, a resistance solderer is absolutely NOT necessary to make turnouts.  I use mine today because I have it, and it makes trackwork easier and quicker, not because it's essential.

If I were to build a turnout designed for daily removal and installation, I could do it easily and conservatively for a quarter the price of Kato Unitrack turnouts, and not change a thing about my present point rail heel hinges, which obviously are much stronger, much simpler, and much more realistic than the Kato design.  If I didn't want to use the Proto87Stores etched hinge product, an even simpler design is the "notch hinge" which forms monolithic closure rail/point rails, which have been installed for several decades on my portable, modular layout, without a single failure at the hinge....and my layout has been disassembled, transported in a U-haul trailer, re-assembled, run at the show, disassembled, transported, and reassembled at home many times.

Photo (1) - "Notch Hinges" forming a monolithic point rail/closure rail turnout part:


As nearly anybody can see, the "notch hinge" in the photo could hardly be simpler.  Not so obvious is the fact that this ultimately simple hinge design guarantees several absolutely essential features for a modern, DCC friendly and reliable N-scale turnout.  Those essentials are: (1) Automatic 100% accurate rail alignment at the hinge (2) Extreme durability (3) 100% reliable electrical continuity.  As a bonus it couldn't be easier or cheaper to make, requiring ZERO extra parts and the simplest of tools, and could be made more realistic looking by simply using a jeweler's saw with a .012" thick blade to make the cuts rather than using a triangular file.

Of course, point rail heel/closure rail hinges can be totally eliminated at least making this part of the turnout simpler, and that is often done when building hand-laid turnouts.  However, for accurate looks, I prefer a proper point rail heel hinge to get that obvious "kink" at the hinges that is part of how a prototype turnout looks.

The only thing that is "very smart" about the Kato turnout hinge design is that it cannot be easily fixed...or maybe not fixed at all if one of the attachment points breaks.  This is "very smart" and advantageous only to Kato because it forces the consumer to buy another Unitrack turnout...lining Mr. Kato's pockets with Unitrack fanboys' money...but does not benefit the consumer.

"Overengineering" is not synonymous with good engineering.  It indicates unnecessary complexity...nothing else.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[alhoop]

Oh FUN!  Let's argue about hand-laying turnouts and Kato Unitrack! 
......................................

What poll or fact-finding information did you read to make your 1% claim? 

..........................................................

If I were to build a turnout designed for daily removal and installation, I could do it easily and conservatively for a quarter the price of Kato Unitrack turnouts, and not change a thing about my present point rail heel hinges, which  the

...................................................









Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

My 1%  was a WAG just as your estimate on building and selling a turnout was.
Your turnouts are on sell where?

As Mr 'Kato' would say " those that can do , all others talk about doing " which describes me.
Regards
Al

[robert3985]

My 1%  was a WAG just as your estimate on building and selling a turnout was.
Your turnouts are on sell where?

As Mr 'Kato' would say " those that can do , all others talk about doing " which describes me.
Regards
Al

I've built and sold many a turnout since my first one I built nearly 40 years ago...nearly 1,000 of 'em and I keep account of their cost.  Since I bought my materials in bulk back in the early 90's, #8's and smaller cost me $1.86 each in material costs using the "notch" hinge protocol.  That cost is mainly for the PCB tie material, and the increase in my material cost to make them more durable would be to add more PCB ties where appropriate, which wouldn't double their cost.

Since standing up to being "taken up and reinstalled daily" was the only parameter to meet, mine would not include the cast roadbed, since I am diametrically opposed to it.  However, mine would be much more durable, much more simple, much better running, look much more prototypical, and after adding profit into the equation to line my own pockets, they'd be exactly a dollar cheaper than Mr. Kato's product.

That's not a guess...if I were to do it, that's what it'd be.  But, I have no desire to do it...I would never want to turn my hobby into "work", nor do I want to encourage or contribute to the "taken up and reinstalled daily" philosophy.

However...there is in development RTR turnouts that will be better than anything I've ever made, along with associated super-detailed and accurate tie strips to lay permanent N-scale track that will be better than anything ever offered for modelers not wanting to change their trackplans four times a day!  Can't wait to see the turnouts!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[peteski]

Oh  Bob!  Kato Unitrack sells in quantities of hundreds of thousands, or maybe even in millions.  The prototypical-fidelity turnouts you are talking about would sell to a niche market (in much, much lower quantities).  Apples and oranges Bob.

And you would really have us believe that any handlaid turnout (you built) will stand up to the rough handling and repeated connect/disconnect cycle like a typical sectional track with roadbed?  Sure Bob . . .

[robert3985]

Oh  Bob!  Kato Unitrack sells in quantities of hundreds of thousands, or maybe even in millions.  The prototypical-fidelity turnouts you are talking about would sell to a niche market (in much, much lower quantities).  Apples and oranges Bob.

And you would really have us believe that any handlaid turnout (you built) will stand up to the rough handling and repeated connect/disconnect cycle like a typical sectional track with roadbed?  Sure Bob . . .

Ah Peter...so, what does the volume of sales have to do with good turnout design and/or reliability??  Are you contending that any large-volume track product MUST be toy-like, just because Kato Unitrack was designed badly from an appearance standpoint and evidently from a mechanical standpoint too? 

Every new model railroad product introduced starts out as a "niche" product until it develops a following.  In most commercial circles, ALL of model railroading appeals only to a "niche market" as its overall profits and customer base are minuscule compared to just about everything else. 

Let's follow your logic train...Large quantity, popular turnouts are apples, and better turnouts that sell in lower quantities are oranges?? That makes absolutely no sense.

If you are referring to sectional track products vs non-sectional track products, your logic still isn't logical.  They are still apples to apples since the parameters that are relevant to make a track model "good" apply whether or not it is to be taken up regularly or glued down forever.

Why do you seem to think that "hand-laid" automatically means "fragile" Peter?  C'mon, think about it.  Do you think that metal rails held in place by tiny plastic tabs is more durable than nickel silver rails attached with silver-bearing solder to copper-clad ties?  Sure, neither is indestructible, but metal soldered to metal is way stronger than metal held in place by tiny plastic fingers.

I have a few of my first Code 70 turnouts that I built for my first Ntrak modules back in the late '70's.  I saved them for posterity because I will probably never build Code70 turnouts again, but they are heavy-duty, and in no way are they fragile.  Although they weren't built to be used as sectional track, with the addition of a few PCB ties here and there to satisfy my extra-durable design inclinations, I bet they would be as durable...perhaps even more durable, than Unitrack turnouts, especially at the throwbar, at the point rail heel hinges and electrically...and exponentially more simple and better looking.

How many hand-laid turnouts have YOU built Peter?  How many have you sold?  How long have you been making them?  Do you really know anything at all about hand-laid turnouts...how to make them quickly, reliably and so they're durable and prototypically proportioned?

in my hundreds of turnouts constructed, I have never, NEVER had a point rail heel hinge failure.  That's a 100% reliability rate.  From what I've read on this thread and from other sources dealing with Kato Unitrack turnout problems, it's evident that Mr. Kato can't claim 100% point rail hinge reliability.  I've also read about electrical problems cropping up with Kato turnouts quite often, and mine are 100% reliable...over nearly 40 years never having an electrical problem with any of my "hand-laid" turnouts. 

So much for the Kato Unitrack "bulletproof" claims.  Obviously the fanboys don't know what "bulletproof" means.

Sure Peter...got any hard evidence that a quality hand-built turnout made to be extra durable wouldn't stand up to the ham-fisted, hairy gorilla abuse that you claim Kato Unitrack gets?  I think that if I were a user of Kato Unitrack, I would be insulted by your "rough handling" claim!    What's going to break on the hand-laid extra durable turnout that won't break first on the Kato design?

All of this doesn't change the fact that on top of Unitrack's non-prototypical appearance (evidently designed badly) it also has problems with durability, minimally both electrically and mechanically at the point rail heel hinges...and other places that I don't remember off the top of my head...and nearly all of the solutions are "buy a new one"...with the fanboys in the background chanting "Bulletproof...Bulletproof...Bulletproof..." as they trash their old broken turnouts and order new replacements.

But, if you likes spending your money on Kato Unitrack...then good for ya!  I'm sure Mr. Kato takes your money and applies a good portion of it it toward developing and manufacturing his excellent N-scale engines and passenger cars.  I think I actually talked with him while waiting for the 4014 to appear at the Ogden Union Station last year.  Can't wait for the Kato Big Boy to finally appear!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore