Operations on the Rio Grande Southern First District

[eric220]

For a priority movement on a layout your size, it should be pretty simple.  Everybody on the main takes a siding, and the priority traffic runs.  If you wanted to simulate that solo with the stock train, start with a local assembled in the yard ready to go.  Next, do the switch work to assemble to stock train and move it to the loading chutes.  While it is "loading," start the local from the yard with a timer running.  When the timer runs out, the local needs to have found a siding and gotten clear of the main, and it's time to run the stock train through.  After it passes, the local can go back to work.

[Dave V]

For a priority movement on a layout your size, it should be pretty simple.  Everybody on the main takes a siding, and the priority traffic runs.  If you wanted to simulate that solo with the stock train, start with a local assembled in the yard ready to go.  Next, do the switch work to assemble to stock train and move it to the loading chutes.  While it is "loading," start the local from the yard with a timer running.  When the timer runs out, the local needs to have found a siding and gotten clear of the main, and it's time to run the stock train through.  After it passes, the local can go back to work.

That is easy enough...  But I have to think through meets.  If I have a five-car train at Lizard Head in the hole, I can get by.  Any more than that coming south my only other opportunity is the house track at Placerville which will often have cars spotted.  So, when a stock extra runs against a long train, we either hold the long southbound at Placerville or wait to load the stock until the southbound arrives Rico with its very nice, long tracks.

Most of the time a stock extra would be just meeting a Goose which means it can be at any point along the route including Ophir.

[wcfn100]

No paperwork at that point...at least until I start figuring out the flow.

Would that work?

Dave, I think you should use paper work but don't worry yet how the cars got there yet.

I'm not an operations guy, but it's my understanding that these 'switch list' forms should be generated after the train is already put together.  The conductor walks the train and reports all the car starting from the caboose (first car on the list) and lists where the car came from and where it's going.

I don't see how making a switch list ahead of time is prototypical, but like I said, I'm not a operations guy.

The way I see it, you have four train movements you need to deal with that would each have separate paperwork, cars coming into Ridgway, Ridgway to Rico.  Rico back to Ridgway and then Ridgway into the great beyond.  For an operation session you don't need to worry about cars in and out of Ridgway, just the train going to Rico and the train back.

I would work backwards. from the train to Rico.  You know what cars could be on that train so put them in the Ridgway yard.  Make up your train and make the switch list.  On that list note where the car would have come from (what station) and use that info for future trains coming into Ridgway.  Make your run to Rico, do your set outs and pick ups and make your train to come back.  Make your list again and note where the new cars are going.  Use that info for future runs out of Ridgway.

I'm sure none of that made sense out of my head, but I just wanted to give another way to approach the situation.

Jason

[Dave V]

@wcfn100 , I think I see what you're saying, but I'm not an ops guy either (yet).

I think in the real world, you're right.  The switch list is created by the conductor based on the waybills associated with the cars in the train.  But on the model railroad side, the idea (as I understand it...and I'm probably wrong) is to forgo all the other steps and just get to the switch list.  So the switch list is really a document that says what needs to get dropped off where and what needs to be picked up where.  Some sort of process through the RGS freight agents at Ridgway and Durango would have informed the train crews of what cars need to be in the train, but I think here we're using the switch list to accomplish both that "behind the scenes" planning and the actual execution once the train's in motion.

Or did I just get that all wrong too?   

[eric220]

Figgerin' out where they are is the easy part.

Figgerin' out where they need to go is the hard part.

Easy.  For each shipper/receiver, ask where their loads are going to/coming from.  That will define for you what the railroad needs to do with them.  I didn't see any paired industries, so most traffic on the layout should originate in a yard and be delivered to an industry, or originate at an industry and terminate in a yard, either Rico or Ridgeway depending on which way the load is going.  "Originating" or "terminating" in Rico or Ridgeway signifies that it's moving on to points beyond.  For each industry, note which way the loads are coming and going; for instance, Conoco/Texaco in Placerville receives refined oil coming up from Texas, so it receives loaded tanks from Rico and sends empties back south to Rico.  That way, you know which way the cars want to move.

Based on your traffic analysis, I'd suggest starting on ops session by going down the list and determining what the needs of each industry are at the moment: for today, does each have a pickup or need a delivery, either a load or an empty?  Once you've got that list, compare it to the notations you've made as described above, and that will tell you where things need to go.  Using the Conoco/Texaco example, if you decide that it has two empties that need to get picked up, and it wants two loads to replace them, you know that you need to pick up two loaded tank cars in Rico, move them to Placerville, and pick up two empty tank cars in Placerville and move them to Rico.  Once you know what the traffic for the session is going to look like, decide how many trains it's going to take to get the southbound traffic from Ridgeway to Rico and the northbound traffic from Rico to Ridgeway.  List out the pickups and setouts for each train, and boom! You have your switch lists.

[eric220]

@wcfn100 , I think I see what you're saying, but I'm not an ops guy either (yet).

I think in the real world, you're right.  The switch list is created by the conductor based on the waybills associated with the cars in the train.  But on the model railroad side, the idea (as I understand it...and I'm probably wrong) is to forgo all the other steps and just get to the switch list.  So the switch list is really a document that says what needs to get dropped off where and what needs to be picked up where.  Some sort of process through the RGS freight agents at Ridgway and Durango would have informed the train crews of what cars need to be in the train, but I think here we're using the switch list to accomplish both that "behind the scenes" planning and the actual execution once the train's in motion.

Or did I just get that all wrong too?   

If you run with what I described above, you can think of the step of going around to determine the industries' needs as playing the freight agents.  Throw on your green brim and go to town!

[eric220]

That is easy enough...  But I have to think through meets.  If I have a five-car train at Lizard Head in the hole, I can get by.  Any more than that coming south my only other opportunity is the house track at Placerville which will often have cars spotted.  So, when a stock extra runs against a long train, we either hold the long southbound at Placerville or wait to load the stock until the southbound arrives Rico with its very nice, long tracks.

Most of the time a stock extra would be just meeting a Goose which means it can be at any point along the route including Ophir.

Or maybe there is a restriction on how long your trains can be if they will be out working during a priority train movement: they cannot be longer than the next available siding.  Maybe you just have to run two shorter trains instead of one long one!

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Easy.  For each shipper/receiver, ask where their loads are going to/coming from.  That will define for you what the railroad needs to do with them.  I didn't see any paired industries, so most traffic on the layout should originate in a yard and be delivered to an industry, or originate at an industry and terminate in a yard, either Rico or Ridgeway depending on which way the load is going.  "Originating" or "terminating" in Rico or Ridgeway signifies that it's moving on to points beyond.  For each industry, note which way the loads are coming and going; for instance, Conoco/Texaco in Placerville receives refined oil coming up from Texas, so it receives loaded tanks from Rico and sends empties back south to Rico.  That way, you know which way the cars want to move.

Based on your traffic analysis, I'd suggest starting on ops session by going down the list and determining what the needs of each industry are at the moment: for today, does each have a pickup or need a delivery, either a load or an empty?  Once you've got that list, compare it to the notations you've made as described above, and that will tell you where things need to go.  Using the Conoco/Texaco example, if you decide that it has two empties that need to get picked up, and it wants two loads to replace them, you know that you need to pick up two loaded tank cars in Rico, move them to Placerville, and pick up two empty tank cars in Placerville and move them to Rico.  Once you know what the traffic for the session is going to look like, decide how many trains it's going to take to get the southbound traffic from Ridgeway to Rico and the northbound traffic from Rico to Ridgeway.  List out the pickups and setouts for each train, and boom! You have your switch lists.

100% this.

In reality, the "behind the scenes" is probably a lot more involved than you'd really want to know, but there's a lot of it. Salespeople, agents, clerks, more clerks and packets of waybills that the conductor is carrying. People joke about PC "losing cars" but when you know the complexity of how it all worked before desktop computers it's amazing it didn't happen much more frequently (or maybe it did).

What I'd say is you might want to create a spreadsheet with all of your industries and their needs to generate some demand. Then just work backwards.

The switch list in reality is nothing more than a cheat sheet for a crew. It's not like it mattered for the conductor where that boxcar of wooden dildos was manufactured, all that mattered was that it was at location x and it was his job to ensure it ended up at location y.

[John]

Ok .. so I modeled your railroad real quick in JMRI Operations .. added some cars and stuff .. here is an example of a train heading south from Montrose





We could work this up in more detail if you provide me things like track lenghts etc ..

[Point353]

That is easy enough...  But I have to think through meets.  If I have a five-car train at Lizard Head in the hole, I can get by.  Any more than that coming south my only other opportunity is the house track at Placerville which will often have cars spotted.  So, when a stock extra runs against a long train, we either hold the long southbound at Placerville or wait to load the stock until the southbound arrives Rico with its very nice, long tracks.

There is a solution to the two longer trains passing each other at a shorter siding problem, but it requires (quite) a bit of extra work.
http://www.sdmrra.org/Odds-n-Ends/saw_bye.htm
"Operators" tend to thrive on this sort of added complication - "roundy-rounders" not so much.

[Dave V]

Ok .. so I modeled your railroad real quick in JMRI Operations .. added some cars and stuff .. here is an example of a train heading south from Montrose





We could work this up in more detail if you provide me things like track lenghts etc ..

Wow, that's really cool!  I spoke with Ed at length though and I'm gonna take some baby steps.  I really need to understand the traffic better before I start generating automated switch lists.

First I need to figure out the actual demand for cars at each of my industries.

[John]

Well, let me know .. the software can work "schedules" as well .. which can make it more restrictive on when a car gets delivered to an industry .. that would allow you to model protype more closely ..

[Dave V]

John, I know you're a seasoned operator.  By comparison I can hardly find by a$$ with a mirror and a flashlight.  I'm not ready for that yet...and "time sensitive" shipments beyond cattle seem to be non-existent on the RGS.  Trains were run according to the "scream test."  Once enough shippers were screaming loudly enough to justify a train, the railroad reluctantly put some cars together and headed out along the line at the pace of a crippled turtle.

Working with Ed, here's what e've come up with so far for online industries:

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Next up is figuring out the interface at Rico for Second District action...northbound loads include coal, finished lumber, and oil with a comparable number of empties needed to come back south.

[Hawghead]

Dave,

Am I correct in assuming all the ore from Placerville, Ophir and Rico would move south to Durango?  Additionally concerning the interface at Rico with the second district, do you have space to connect a removable cassette to the stock yard lead?

Scott

[Dave V]

Dave,

Am I correct in assuming all the ore from Placerville, Ophir and Rico would move south to Durango?  Additionally concerning the interface at Rico with the second district, do you have space to connect a removable cassette to the stock yard lead?

Scott

No and no... 

First district trains apparently sent ore northward (I assume to be smelted at Salida or some such place?) as well as southward.  For simplicity I'm moving it all north.  The carnotite ore DOES go to Durango because that's where it was smelted according to records.  It's not clear to me why some seemed to go north and some went south.  I plan to dig deeper into this, but again, since I don't model Durango, I'm happy to ship most ore north.  After all, all the ore from Ouray went north through to Montrose, and it appears that most Pandora turns to Telluride started and terminated at Ridgway as if Durango didn't exist.

As for the second bit, I don't need cassettes or other such complications.  I have an almost 10 foot long relay track at Rico that can handle all the inbounds and outbounds I'm likely to ever generate from the Second District in a given session.  Based on photographs, that's apparently what that third track (the one closest to the enginehouse) was for.  I've seen cuts of tank cars parked there clearly being relayed between districts.