Gawd I hate ballasting

[tehachapifan]

You guys definitely know how to achieve good results! I, on the other hand, get very different results. Everything seems to have a mind of its own during the gluing process.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

If you go back and look at that prototype shot of Robert3985's UP main....what do you see?

I see a couple things.   First, the ballast color on the two main lines is not the same.   Huh.   Sort of what I see on ATSF.   Second, whatever that inner track is is a very-much secondary track, lower, a little weed growth, and not as well maintained.    Now go back and look at his model shots, and the same subtle variations in color and density are there as well.

Just pointing out that the tendency to have consistent color and spic-and-span ballast on a model actually makes it less interesting than having a distinct contrast between recently raised-and-surfaced track, yards, secondary lines, and lines just left to die in the weeds.

This is really true!

And not only is there often a difference between "main", "siding" and "yard", there's often a big difference in two tracks on a main. For instance, if the ballast cleaner has recently worked one or the other the colors will be different. Same thing with if you're on a grade (the whole sandy uphill track thing).

[randgust]

Fun with eras:    a rather famous spot, actually, the Winona, AZ overpass east of Flagstaff.   A whole lot of classic calendar shots taken here.

1972 - the dark red/brown basalt cinder ballast.   Note you can hardly see the ties due to all the dust.  Era that I model.   I have actually gone back and painted my reddish/brown ballast to get a darker brown tint to it on the Flagstaff/Winona area.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/450993/
There's a 1960's color postcard I have in my collection that shows an area somewhere between Williams and Flagstaff that has cinder ballast that is dark gray, almost black.   Verne Niner's N layout was done in that color and was totally accurate for the area.  My previous ATSF layout was that shade.

1990 - sorta the Santa Fe Mauve, mixed in with the old stuff.   Same exact spot.
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/725031/

1995 - OK, clean that mess up and put in gray granite....
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/513863/

2017 - you can see a raise and lift on the one main that leaves the track with two distinct color variations
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/632072/

[robert3985]

If you go back and look at that prototype shot of Robert3985's UP main....what do you see?

I see a couple things.   First, the ballast color on the two main lines is not the same.   Huh.   Sort of what I see on ATSF.   Second, whatever that inner track is is a very-much secondary track, lower, a little weed growth, and not as well maintained.    Now go back and look at his model shots, and the same subtle variations in color and density are there as well.

Just pointing out that the tendency to have consistent color and spic-and-span ballast on a model actually makes it less interesting than having a distinct contrast between recently raised-and-surfaced track, yards, secondary lines, and lines just left to die in the weeds.

I really admire the workmanship I see here though, and materials have come a long way.

@randgust  @Ed Kapuscinski   It's amazing what you can notice from prototype photos and from walking the tracks (if they'll let you do that nowadays).  I seem to glean more from photos than I do from actual observation.  It's like my eyes fill in the blanks and don't notice things that aren't quite what I was expecting, but when I look at photos, another part of the brain notices a lot more.  In the prototype photo I posted to show glistening rocks, the westbound mainline (down grade) is freshly ballasted, so is not as reddish as the eastbound mainline (up grade) because the effects of the reddish weed killer that UP uses hasn't had time to accumulate as much on the newly ballasted section of track.  The weedy line in the foreground is the Park City Branch, which by the time this photo was taken was only used a couple of times a week to take a train to the Phosphate plant at the end of the line, dropping off empties and picking up loaded hoppers. 

Even more noticeable on modern railroads is their converting to concrete ties.  Since UP is double-mainlined most of its length, it's pretty obvious when looking at some sections that one mainline will have concrete ties and new ballast, and the other side will have the old wooden ties and highly weathered ballast.  I am sure there are other modern roads that do the same thing.

As for up grade or down grade lines...yes, they do look different for a number of reasons, one reason (as Ed pointed out) is sand being used for traction on up grades, but also because there is extra strain on engines and they run hotter, which leads to more lubricant leaks.  On the down grades, trains brake and the whole train with brakes applied produces quite a bit of residue that's left on the tracks...over time coloring ties and ballast.  In the steam era on roads that had coal fired engines, the up grades had literally tons of cinders piled up...sometimes to the point that special maintenance trains had to be dispatched to remove it.  Alongside the eastbound UP mainline through Weber and Echo Canyons, if you look under the bushes and down low on the sides of the ballast contour, you can still see that there are several feet of cinders and ashes from the massive steam locomotives which ran on those rails dozens of times a day.  During the steam era, with the Challengers and Big Boys plying the rails there, the ballast on the up grade eastbound line was colored with the ash and cinders much more than the westbound downhill track.  When it rained, which was not often, the ash was mostly washed away and accumulated between mainlines, but the heavier cinders remained, and you could see it on the sides of the heavily ballasted eastbound trackage.

I was looking at an official UP chart that was printed concerning the trackage in Weber and Echo Canyons, and it listed all of the sidings, the number of each turnout, the mileage between signals, the stations that needed to be stopped at, the grade percentage, and also the ballast type and from what quarry it was dug from.  I was quite surprised that there were dozens of quarries that ballast was dug from in that 70 mile stretch of mainline between Ogden and Evanston...which means that the ballast is surely not all the same color every mile of a road's trackage.  This is good, because I have lost my formulation for the colors of ballast I used when I mixed up my first big batch many years ago...and it's getting low.  If I don't get the color exactly the same when I mix up my next batch this Summer, it's no biggie because the prototype did it too, and color consistency was the last thing they were worried about!

All this is to say that treating track and ballasting like you would when you build a specific model of a car, building or engine helps to make it more credible and maybe more interesting...and you get to tell stories of why you did it the way you did it to your friends and fellow asshats!

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[bdennis]

Thanks for the tips guys. Have gone to railpictures.net to find the prototype pics of the area I model on the D&H.

[Angus Shops]

Ed, I really like the look of your sanded grout, BUT... the only sanded grout I can find in these parts (Vancouver) is an all-in-one polymer modified mix. I tried a charcoal coloured product for some yard trackage as a test (cinder ballasted) and really liked the colour and texture, but the polymer part of the ‘polymer modified’ caused some real problems. It caused the glue/water part of the application to thicken into a slurry on top of the ballast and ties. It worked in the end but generally the glue mix refused to mix into the grout even if the ballast was previously ‘wetted’ with alcohol. I assume this was a result of the polymer addition.
I take it from your description you can buy ‘Part C’ (basically the coloured sand portion of the grout mix) separately from the rest of grout mixture. That would be perfect. In these parts at least, sanded grout is only available as a polymer modified one part product. Subsequently to my trial I searched out some advice from local tile distributors and was told that tile grout without the polymer addition hasn’t been available for at least a few years. My advise would be to stay away from any grout mixture the “polymer modified” on the label. I would appreciate further thoughts because I agree that the colour selection and texture of ‘sanded grout’ would be ideal for track ballasting.
Geoff

[kgreen]

Its been a long time since i have done any ballasting  i just tried to do a section of track and it reminded me of why i hate hate it so bad. 
I have seen videos and I cant get the glue water mixture to wick through the ballast like the videos seem to clearly show.   What am I not doing correctly.  Yes I break the tension with dishsoap.  The glue seems to want to just pool.  Any ideas are appreciated.  Tks. Kirk

[Mike C]

Its been a long time since i have done any ballasting  i just tried to do a section of track and it reminded me of why i hate hate it so bad. 
I have seen videos and I cant get the glue water mixture to wick through the ballast like the videos seem to clearly show.   What am I not doing correctly.  Yes I break the tension with dishsoap.  The glue seems to want to just pool.  Any ideas are appreciated.  Tks. Kirk

   Use pure 91% alcohol to wet the ballast then use 50% white glue 25% water and 25% alcohol to glue it . The glue will soak right in as long as the ballast is thoroughly wetted  with the 91% .......Mike

[kgreen]

Thanks for your reply.  It wouldn't matter if the glue was old would it?

[LIRR]

 I saturate the ballast with 70% alcohol using an eye dropper, then i apply diluted white glue - 40/60 glue/water mix - also with an  eye dropper. If the glue pools at all, apply alcohol

[mu26aeh]

I was going to ballast this evening during the zoom call, but chickened out.  I'll show the final product, but not the process live  

[OldEastRR]

\
Gosh, whatever happened to that pretty, little layout? I really liked the look. I suppose in an alternative universe it became the end of a large extended layout that grew, like Popp's Naugatuck Valley RR. Something about blending craftsmanship with the artistic beauty of a everyday scene really makes a pleasurable view. 

[LIRR]

if ballasting is not your thing, the secret is patience and mental discipline...."today I shall ballast!....a little, until I get tired of it". It's not my favorite aspect of the hobby (only wiring is worse) and I only do a foot or 3 at a time...it can really make or break the scene, so the time is well spent. Easy for me to say, but my layout is only 75 linear feet...16 of it double tracked passing sidings and a small 3 track yard. I can see it being quite the undertaking on a basement empire.

[arbomambo]

Its been a long time since i have done any ballasting  i just tried to do a section of track and it reminded me of why i hate hate it so bad. 
I have seen videos and I cant get the glue water mixture to wick through the ballast like the videos seem to clearly show.   What am I not doing correctly.  Yes I break the tension with dishsoap.  The glue seems to want to just pool.  Any ideas are appreciated.  Tks. Kirk

Are you skipping the pre-wetting process before you apply the dilute glue mixture?
If you’re not pre-wetting (saturating the ballast with a wetting agent - the most reliable is 50-70% isopropyl alcohol), then you are missing a very critical step.
The pre-wetting with alcohol paves the way for the subsequent dilute glue mixture to flow down through every nook and cranny in the ballast. Otherwise the glue mixture will pool and/or dry only on the top layer of ballast, forming a ‘crust’ with completely dry and loose ballast underneath.
Always pre-wet the ballast (or any other ground cover) before applying the dilute glue.

[mike_lawyer]

My tips - don't try to do too big of an area at a time.  I use a little sprayer with 70 percent alcohol to wet it, then apply the glue with an eye-dropper.  I use the real ballast rock from Scenery Express.