Strange Hopper Question

[CNR5529]

Just wondering if anyone can identify these hoppers, are they based on a real prototype and if so, what railroad(s) may have rostered them? They are stamped Austria, so I am guessing made by Roco. They dont really look like any other hoppers I am more familiar with, so wondering if they are a european foobie?

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

[thomasjmdavis]

These were originally marketed by MRC (and you are correct, made by Roco).  Here is what Spookshow has to say about them

This model dates back to the early days of N scale (late 60s / early 70s). It was originaly imported by MRC. Later on it became part of the Minitrix "Old Timer" series.

I'm told that this model is actually a good representation of a rebuilt Seley composite hopper. Originally built in the the very early 1900s, they were later rebuilt by the Delaware & Hudson into triple hoppers in the 1920s or 1930s. Said rebuilds were in use until at least the early 1960s.

http://www.spookshow.net/freight/trixoldtimehop.html

And this from the NEB&W hopper guide about "Seley" hoppers:

Just after 1900, C.A. Seley of the Norfolk & Western proposed composite designs, using steel components to form trusses on sides, but using wood to form the actual body. It is interesting that the design for using part-steel, part-wood came after the design for all-steel. While composite designs in general, including single-sheathed box cars, are directly descended from his designs, freight car historians refer to Seley cars as those hoppers using C-channel for the ribs. Seley cars had their longest life on the Southern RR and on the Delaware & Hudson. (The D&H Seley cars, purchased in 1906-7, represented about two-thirds of the entire D&H hopper car fleet in 1949.)

https://nebwrailroad.com/index.php?title=NEB%26W_Guide_to_Hopper_Cars_-_Introduction

From what I can tell from looking up "Seley hoppers" the "rebuild" must have resulted in the odd 3 bay design, as the originals had a different sort of mechanism.  Old and Weary car shops did an HO model of the rebuild version that is similar to the Roco model.

[nkalanaga]

Interesting.  I always assumed they were a 1940s "War Emergency" design.

[Cajonpassfan]

Very interesting. I have three of these I had acquired decades ago because I liked the unique composite design. With better trucks and couplers, they look pretty respectable for their age, and provide a nice variety (even though they probably have no business on my SoCal layout).
Otto

[nkalanaga]

I have a picture of two PRR hoppers in Pasco, WA around 1970, so having an occasional Eastern hopper in California wouldn't be out of line.

[CNR5529]

Thanks @thomasjmdavis for all the information, the collective knowledge of TRW never disappoints! So if I understand correctly, the model really only represents the rebuilt D&H cars, as the original Seley cars have somewhat enclosed ends? I guess its time to track down some D&H decals!

[thomasjmdavis]

@CNR5529 - you're welcome.  The only reason I knew anything about these was that I ran across the same model last week while searching eBay for something else- and it led me to investigate.  Here is the best photo I can find of the originals (in this case, although the builder photo shows D&H lettering, this particular car was actually delivered with a batch to B&M).  The original Seley hopper appears to be a variation on a drop bottom gondola, but with sloped ends (although the outer framing is squared off).

http://bostonandmainerailroad.redmansefarm.com/B%26Mcoalcars.htm

The cars are available in HO in both original and rebuilt versions from Funaro and Camerlengo-
http://fandckits.com/

[Mark5]

I have one of these in my N scale hopper collection (love the no stirrup molding!).

I had no idea that these were based on any proto before today lol. Very loosely based if the Funaro and Camerlengo model is accurate:

http://fandckits.com/images/3090Large.jpg

It looks like they stretched it out a bit to include a 3rd bay.

Many of the early N hoppers seem to have been based on photos (not drawings), and improperly scaled.

Mark

[CNR5529]

Here is a photo I just came across of a rebuilt car. (Linked photo didn't work, but it came from here: https://m.facebook.com/NEBandW/photos/pcb.1068683046551570/1068675409885667/?type=3&source=48&__tn__=EH-R)

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Looks pretty close to the mrc/roco model actually. Apparently there were both 2 bay and 3 bay versions.

Anyone know if suitable decals are available?

[CNR5529]

Hmmm this should do...

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/dh1/p/10147s-dh-co-nh-usra-hopper-1-car/Default.aspx

[thomasjmdavis]

I have one of these in my N scale hopper collection (love the no stirrup molding!).

I had no idea that these were based on any proto before today lol. Very loosely based if the Funaro and Camerlengo model is accurate:

http://fandckits.com/images/3090Large.jpg

It looks like they stretched it out a bit to include a 3rd bay.

Many of the early N hoppers seem to have been based on photos (not drawings), and improperly scaled.

Mark

I should have taken a closer look  at the F&C rebuilt hopper. And I am due for an appt with the eye doc shortly after such things become possible again.  But the 3 bay version is also "proto" as the photo CNR5529 posted demonstrates.  I did not realize there was also a 2 bay version.

On sizes of things in early N scale, it was pretty common to see length and height "adjustments" by manufacturers in order to use as many existing parts as possible.  Plus errors in English-Metric conversions, or assuming that length was "over couplers" when it was "over end sills" (or whatever).  Thus, we ended up with "41 foot" boxcars, "drop bottom" gondolas with the same underframe as the 41 foot boxcar, wood cars with the ends and roof of a PS 1, etc. 

But it does add to the fun.  As this example shows, there IS a prototype for almost everything. If you look long enough, you discover that some road out there had an oddball or a rebuild that is pretty darn close to just about every model. Except for the green ATSF stock car (made in some form by almost every manufacturer in every scale), for which, as near as I can determine, the prototype was built by Lionel in the 30s or 40s.

[Mark5]

Here is a photo I just came across of a rebuilt car.

Excellent. Another N scale mystery definitively solved. 

Mark

[bdennis]

Well there ya go.. I am a D&H Modeller and assumed that these were just foobies by Trix.. I have  a few of the EJ&E cars also.

[Cajonpassfan]

Well, there you go. With relatively easy improvements, these could be very cool cars. I just don’t know how to justify three of the on the west coast. Well, maybe one. Or two. Please?
Otto K., like I don’t have enough “legitimate” projects...😀

[thomasjmdavis]

Well, there you go. With relatively easy improvements, these could be very cool cars. I just don’t know how to justify three of the on the west coast. Well, maybe one. Or two. Please?
Otto K., like I don’t have enough “legitimate” projects...😀

Industry that requires anthracite coal? Appalachian limestone?

Found this interesting bit on Appalachian Railroad Modeling- http://appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/a-brief-history-of-coal-hoppers/

The Seley car was a steel-frame, wood-bodied hopper with steel truss framing on the sides along with the old horizontal doors. N&W was the largest buyer, but SAL, ACL, Virginian, B&O, C&O, and perhaps Rock Island had similar cars.

Not that Rock Island would have modernized in the same way as D&H, but.... a lot closer the the west coast... 

Or could be you are importing genuine Lake Michigan sand via GB&W

098.   
Hagen, John. Seley Hoppers, in Green Bay and Western Lines, vol. 1 issue 2, Green Bay and Western Historical Society, p. 6.
Prototype information on the 'Seley' hoppers on the GB&W, 1922-1940.

Green Bay and Western Lines
099.   
Hainstock, Bob. GBW's Seley Hopper Cars, in Green Bay and Western Lines, vol. 2 issue 3, Green Bay and Western Historical Society, p. 10-12.
A history of Seley composite hoppers, including modeling tips. Thirty ex-Virginian hoppers became GBW 4037-4075 and KGBW 4401-4419 in the 1920s. Includes a drawing of a Seley wooden hopperoriginally published in Mainline Modeler, December 1987.

There is also an article on non-D&H Seley Hoppers in the March 1988 Mainline Modeler. 

We should probably stop talking about these cars.  If we keep this up, the price on Ebay will go from $3 to $25, like the helium cars.