Repowering an old ConCor/Kato Hudson

[Lemosteam]

It looks like all the riddles are being solved by Max @mmagliaro and @central.vermont .  I'm going to dispense with the OEM motor, and replace it with a later Life Like 5-poler that Max will be performing a worm transplant on.

My next bit of excitement will be powering the tender chassis.  I believe I have all the parts necessary for that operation, but stay close to your radios, kids.  I may send up another flare!

Thanks to all for playing along at home.

Lee

Same motor as the one in your K4.

[mmagliaro]

The motors arrived today (thank you Jon), and Lee's dead Kato motor with the worm on it also arrived.
That worm was on there with "Rockbaum's Steel-Grip Glue" .  A gear puller nor a punch would get it to even budge.
I'm afraid I had to destroy the old motor by opening up the frame at the back, pulling out the armature and brush holder assembly, and then cutting the brush holder away so I could press the whole axle out of the armature, and then hammer the axle out a little from the back side through the worm, which freed it up enough to press it out.

But the good news is that I did get it off and mounted on the LL motor, and just test-holding it my hand, I can see that it's going to work.  I just have to do some testing and fiddling to get the mounting hole right.

John, I have one of those old Kato Hudson chassis here, so I am using that to test fit it and make sure the screw hole will be in the correct place and that it will indeed mesh with the idler and run the engine when it's mounted in there.

[wm3798]

It's good to know that our own resident brain surgeon resorts to a hammer and a bench vise when necessary!

I know it's all in good hands!  Looking very much forward to restoring this engine to operating condition.

I've scavenged up parts to try to effect the tender pick ups as well.  So if you don't have something "off the rack" I think I can, I think I can...

Hopefully I also have enough to do the Camden and Amboy tender that came with the L-1 kit.  If not, I'll just rob the wipers off of one of my PC coaches.  Having one where the lights don't work is prototypical, I'm told....

Lee

[central.vermont]

The motors arrived today (thank you Jon), and Lee's dead Kato motor with the worm on it also arrived.
That worm was on there with "Rockbaum's Steel-Grip Glue" .  A gear puller nor a punch would get it to even budge.
I'm afraid I had to destroy the old motor by opening up the frame at the back, pulling out the armature and brush holder assembly, and then cutting the brush holder away so I could press the whole axle out of the armature, and then hammer the axle out a little from the back side through the worm, which freed it up enough to press it out.

But the good news is that I did get it off and mounted on the LL motor, and just test-holding it my hand, I can see that it's going to work.  I just have to do some testing and fiddling to get the mounting hole right.

John, I have one of those old Kato Hudson chassis here, so I am using that to test fit it and make sure the screw hole will be in the correct place and that it will indeed mesh with the idler and run the engine when it's mounted in there.

Max, so the Kato motor wasn't a good fit then??
I thought it was a better motor and a possible candidate.

Jon

[mmagliaro]

Jon,
No, that other Kato motor you sent is actually a little bigger than the Life-Like, and it definitely does not run as well.  The LL motors have a skewed armature, and can run at shockingly low RPMs for such inexpensive devices.  They are not all quite the same.  The really outstanding LL examples will actually start turning at only 1.5v (the one going in this engine isn't quite that good, but it starts at 3v).  The Kato motor spins faster, and like a lot of those straight-wound Katos, won't really start until about 5v.

I will mail that Kato motor back to you.  Thank you VERY much for sending it to give us another option to try.

[peteski]

Jon,
No, that other Kato motor you sent is actually a little bigger than the Life-Like, and it definitely does not run as well.  The LL motors have a skewed armature, and can run at shockingly low RPMs for such inexpensive devices.  They are not all quite the same.  The really outstanding LL examples will actually start turning at only 1.5v (the one going in this engine isn't quite that good, but it starts at 3v).  The Kato motor spins faster, and like a lot of those straight-wound Katos, won't really start until about 5v.

I will mail that Kato motor back to you.  Thank you VERY much for sending it to give us another option to try.

Curious. Which Kato motor was it?  The standard one they use in all their current offerings, or the slightly larger (single shaft) one they used to use in their early steam locos?
While it is true that those motors do rev quite high, I have never seen any that would need 5V to start!   They usually start at about 2V, and once they run for few seconds, they will stay running down to 1.2V (the lowest voltage I have on my power supply).

[mmagliaro]

Peteski, It looks to me like the ones that were in the later generation Hudsons.   I'm not a fan of most of those older Kato motors, even the ones in the diesels (the "GM-5").   My experience with them is much different than yours, I guess.  They all seem to need about 5v to get going. 

[mmagliaro]

Here are some pics of the LL motor mounted in a 1st gen Hudson.  Presumably, these frames are all uniform enough that when I send this motor to Lee, he can just drop it into his frame, attach the screw, and it will work.

DO MAKE SURE when you slip it into frame that the worm engages the idler correctly.  It's easy to know.  If you get the motor in there, the screw hole lines up on the back, and the drivers have some wiggle in them, you've got it right.  It means the gear teeth aren't misaligned.

I did check to make sure a Hudson shell will snap down over this, and it does with no problems.  The soldered wires may not be necessary.  I put them on there to test with.  The LL motor tabs can probably bend around and press between the plastic motor nose and the left and right frame halves so pick up power from the frames. But if you plan on adding tender pickup (I STRONGLY suggest this), you may want to attach soldered leads from the tender right through up onto the motor tabs.

Oh.. the RED wire should go to the RIGHT RAIL pickup. 

[wm3798]

When the cooler arrives with the organs for transplant, I'll put up some shots of the surgery.

In case there are any issues, you'll be able to tell me exactly what I did wrong!

I suspect the transition will be seamless.  I'll get to work on the tender pick ups directly.

Thanks again!
Lee

[Albert in N]

"Having one where the lights don't work is prototypical, I'm told." [from Lee's post] 
From a suggestion from Nato several years ago, I have used craft store stick on scrapbook jewels when I needed a rear red caboose light or (in this case) a headlight where the factory simply had a hole.  As a side note to ConCor Kato Hudson fans, this one came unboxed with Great Northern colors and no road number.  I have thought about repainting it and installing decals for my preference of another railroad.  If this has some collector value, I will leave GN colors.  This Hudson runs very well, likes replacement Kato traction tire, and will only get slightly warm after about 30 minutes running.

"

[central.vermont]

Max, should the shaft sticking out to the rear be trimmed off or will this be hidden in the cab. If it's
hidden would a flywheel fit on it?
Also no hurry on returning the unused organ!! 

Jon

[mmagliaro]

I left that backshaft on the motor, in case Lee wants to put a flywheel on there.
When Con-Cor introduced their version of this engine in 1994, they left the backshaft on the motor,
and packed a flywhee with the engine, explaining to customers that they felt that the flywheel didn't add much
in the way of performance, and increased vibration from the motor, so they decided to leave the shaft and let
you put the flywheel on if you wanted it.
(I have a cynical opinion on this, which is that a motor should not vibrate more from a flywheel on the backshaft
if the flywheel is true and the motor bearings are decent)

Anyway, since this motor pushes forward into the frame a little more than the original Kato motor, I think there may be room
for a flywheel, so Lee, if you want one, you can put one on.  Otherwise, I do not think the shaft will stick out from the cab,
and if it really bothers you, you can paint it black, or buzz it off with a Dremel cut-off disk.  The only thing to worry about there,
of course, is to go SLOWLY.  Just take a couple of passes, let the metal cool off, and then buzz some more.  If you heat up
the shaft too much, you can melt the plastic in the motor.

[wm3798]

I'll apply a little black paint and call it Christmas.

But it's always good to have options!

Lee

[mmagliaro]

Gaaaa!  I forgot something important.   You WILL need to do some minor filing on the frame before you put the motor in.
The LL motor is wider than the original, so you need to file away some small ridges so that it will end up centered in the frame.
This is crucial to the worm lining up, and also to the motor fitting under the shell.

Here are photos to illustrate:

[Lemosteam]

So. Many. Memories....  of that little motor.