Repowering an old ConCor/Kato Hudson

[wm3798]

According to Spookshow, the original issue motors were notorious for burning up.  The design of the motor is very similar to the old Mehano motors with the open frame, and two steel plates energized by a single magnet at the back.  I'm not sure what the composition of the armature is, but my experience was that it would run fine for a few minutes, then the motor itself would start to bind.  I assume it was due to some element of the armature expanding due to the heat, eventually making contact with the metal strips at the top and bottom (They are stamped metal, shaped in a "cup" that cradles the armature in close proximity, since they are providing the magnetic field.  It may be the steel that's expanding.  I'm not sure.  But either way, it runs until it doesn't, and after it cools down, the motor binds up badly with the armature unable to spin freely.

I took it apart once, and used my bench vise to flatten out the cup a tiny bit, which let it run again.  I cleaned the gears, valve gear and motor bearings and applied some light gear oil to the whole mess, and after reassembly it ran better than it had since I first tested it a couple of weeks ago.  I figured "problem solved" and hooked it to a train to run laps.

After about 15 minutes, it started cogging, and stalled again.  I pulled the shell, and the exact same condition existed that I had before I tore it all down. I damn near blistered my finger attempting to turn the armature, and it was stuck but good.  Without the motor engaged, the drivers roll quite freely, so I don't think there's a bind in the drive train.  I think it's just a crappy motor.

so with that said, @central.vermont , if you have a motor to spare, let me know what it will require for you to send it to Max, and I'll send my motor out to him to perform the worm gear transplant.

@mmagliaro I can also send you the tender frame and trucks if you have any tricks up your sleeve for installing pick up shoes, although I think I can probably fight my way through that.

Thanks for the positive vibes!
Stay well,
Lee

[wm3798]

I guess while we're on the subject of tenders...  Anyone got a shell?  It looks like someone from the Red Team got P.O.d and keyed the paint on this one...



I was thinking I could sand it smooth and re-apply the rivets using them fancy decals, but that seems like a lot of work to repair something that no doubt is collecting dust in someone's junk box...

I'm happy to entertain reasonable offers...

Lee

[mmagliaro]

TEAM EFFORT!  LOL!

Okay, central.vermont, contact me via PM and I'll send you a mailing address where you can send me the motor.
Lee, send me the old motor with the worm on it, and I'll pull it, put it on the new motor, and send that back to you,
WITH a replacement tender shell. 

I don't want to get into the tender truck transplant.  I just can't start another project now.  If I have a whole chassis with the live trucks on it in my junk, I'll send you that too, but no promises on that one.  I don't know if I have one.

I hope nobody laughs if I say that this project has suddenly become very heartwarming, and I am glad to be part of it.

[peteski]

Lee,
That Lifelike motor you are talking about is it the same one that was used in their GP18 with the plastic frame if it
is I have 2 of them and would be willing to send one to you. Also nobody has asked this but why is the motor
heating up anyway? Is something binding and does it heat up if out of the chassis running on its own?

Jon

I also have few of those old motors.  They were quite inferior to anything we have available now.  I don't have any scientific facts, but from what I see, those motors had fairly weak magnets, the armature had fairly "skinny" poles, and they used very thin wire for winding.   That results in them have weak torque, so they end up running under a load and voltage excessive for them, causing overheating.

Think of this as installing a small 4 cylinder engine into a large pickup truck gear which is pulling a heavy trailer while being stuck in 3rd gear. That engine would be laboring very hard (probably at full throttle) trying to pull the load.  It would likely overheat.

[wm3798]

@peteski are you talking about the old Kato motor or the Life Like that will be transplanted into it?  I hope it's the former...  What you describe is exactly what my experience is with it.  Regarding the magnet, the fact that there is only one and it's transmitting its juju via a couple of pieces of steel... rather than the more reliable dual magnets in direct relation to the armature, just seems like a bad plan.  I have a crate of old Mehano drives that demonstrate that as clearly as can be.

I'm very excited about the project now as well.  I love the collaborative nature of TRW.  One day I hope to contribute something other than bad photos of junk and low wattage humor.  Thanks guys!

I'll pop the victim into the same box you just sent me.  Maybe I should just scrawl "Return to Sender" on it and save a trip to the Post Office!

Lee

[mike_lawyer]

Great group effort guys... Those Life-Like 90s motors are great for these types of projects.

With regard to the tender, I would hard-wire one of the spectrum tenders.  Don't use wipers, use some flexible wire and hard wire it.  That will provide bullet-proof electrical conductivity.

[peteski]

@peteski are you talking about the old Kato motor or the Life Like that will be transplanted into it?  I hope it's the former...  What you describe is exactly what my experience is with it.  Regarding the magnet, the fact that there is only one and it's transmitting its juju via a couple of pieces of steel... rather than the more reliable dual magnets in direct relation to the armature, just seems like a bad plan.  I have a crate of old Mehano drives that demonstrate that as clearly as can be.
 . . .
Lee

The early (developed in 1966) Sekusui Kinzoku (Kato) "Midget" motor was their first N scale motor produced in-house. I learned all of this from the Kato's "50th Anniversary of Kato N-Gauge Models" book.

The Mehano (later Model Power) motors are almost identical in construction (I wonder if they copied Kato's design?).  I think Mehano motor is little longer, but the overall design seems identical, and also woefully underpowered.  With only a single magnet, it will be even wimpier.

BTW, that Kato book is a great source of historical N scale information (not just Kato).  Too bad that the English translation only covers photo captions.

Oh, those newer Life-Like (then Walthers) chunky motors are very nice, and pack quite a bit of torque.  Those are excellent motors.

[wm3798]

Thanks for all the great feedback.  The wheels are in motion for the repower to take place!

I have a question about the paint scheme, though.  Not being a student of the New York Central, I can't help but wonder if that large Roman type face is a prototypical paint scheme?  I've seen it on old Lionels, but I can't say as I've seen it on a photo or illustration of the real thing... (I also haven't looked terribly hard).

Just curious if Jim Conway was paying tribute to the NYC, or Lionel, or both with this one?

Lee

[wm3798]

Answered my own question.  This looks like a builder's photo

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/New_York_Central_4-6-4_Hudson_locomotive%2C_5249_%28CJ_Allen%2C_Steel_Highway%2C_1928%29.jpg

It's sort of an extended Roman font, with some nice striping.  If I can find decals, I think this is what she'll be wearing once the boys in the mechanical shop are done with her.

Lee

[brokemoto]

I have a question about the paint scheme, though.  Not being a student of the New York Central, I can't help but wonder if that large Roman type face is a prototypical paint scheme?  I've seen it on old Lionels, but I can't say as I've seen it on a photo or illustration of the real thing... (I also haven't looked terribly hard).

The font known as Central Gothic, the sans serif lettering for which NYCS is best known, did not appear until the late 1930s/early 1940s.  Before that, it was the Roman.  Of course, the re-lettering was delayed, in many cases, between 1942 and 1945.  Most of the Hudsons did receive the Central Gothic.  In some cases, such as on the P&LE, you would see the Central Gothic on the tender but the old Railroad Roman on the locomotive cab (number only).  Eventually, almost all of the P&LE steam did get the Central Gothic numbers on the cabs.

NYCS got its first diesels in the 1920s.  They had the Railroad Roman lettering.  Those delivered in the late 1930s and during the war years had the Central Gothic.

[Brian M]

Lee,
Microscale set 60-78 covers NYC steam engines, and includes the Roman font you're looking for.

-Brian.

[mmagliaro]

Lee,
Microscale set 60-78 covers NYC steam engines, and includes the Roman font you're looking for.

-Brian.

That's the set I used on mine.  I bought my first one in 1986, so I got the "good" one, the Kato-built with the tender pickups, better motor, and plastic side rods.  But knowing nothing, I bought it lettered for "Pennsylvania"  (ha ha, Con-Cor, gotta love them).  I later relettered it for New York Central.

[learmoia]

I guess while we're on the subject of tenders...  Anyone got a shell?  It looks like someone from the Red Team got P.O.d and keyed the paint on this one...



I was thinking I could sand it smooth and re-apply the rivets using them fancy decals, but that seems like a lot of work to repair something that no doubt is collecting dust in someone's junk box...

I'm happy to entertain reasonable offers...

Lee

I DO I DO!!!
    Matching NYC Too

~Ian

PS.. Also forwarding Sharky your details.. he has a motor from when he purchased a drive from me to fix his with side rod problems.

[Doug G.]

Those motors (early Kato, Mehano) have a weak magnetic field because of the type of magnet and them not being magnetized after motor assembly. In fact, you can't get those magnets any stronger by trying to magnetize them. Thus, it takes more current to get the armature to turn and even the typical 200 mA current gets them pretty warm. Any additional friction and they will overheat.

The only advantage is they can turn at very slow speeds due to very low magnet drag, making Mehano locos great for switching.

BTW, a Pennsy fan walked by that NYC tender.

Doug

[wm3798]

It looks like all the riddles are being solved by Max @mmagliaro and @central.vermont .  I'm going to dispense with the OEM motor, and replace it with a later Life Like 5-poler that Max will be performing a worm transplant on.

My next bit of excitement will be powering the tender chassis.  I believe I have all the parts necessary for that operation, but stay close to your radios, kids.  I may send up another flare!

Thanks to all for playing along at home.

Lee