Author Topic: Best Of The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread  (Read 20414 times)

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narrowminded

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2020, 07:51:27 PM »
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Mark, there are no bearings.   The cylinder frame has two square cut-outs (yellow arrow below).   The 1mm shaft just sits in that.



So, what's in this photo is all you would make overall (except for the missing drive gear- which I have an extra)-  if you decided to proceed at all.
Of course, this is the straight shaft, but you have the idea.  No bearings, nothing extra.   Just 3 counterweights and one gear.    The only thing needed beyond this photo is longer shafts on the ends.  Better to have too much and trim than not enough.



Thanks, Ron.  I still thought that there was a very narrow flanged cam type piece in there next to each of the crank throws for the valve connecting rod(s).  If not, where do they connect?  Do they just sit on the shaft journal?

On those end square pockets, even though they don't look like a bearing as we might know it, they are the bearing and there are only two, one each end.  And I guess that's what sets the gear clearance, too.  Hmmm, lots of hand fitting, huh? 

Sooo, with what I'm seeing, it seems that it would be a doable and pretty nice and very true running once done.  I suspect I could make the crank throws from brass and the shaft and journals could be hardened drill rod which would basically last forever in this service.  As much as possible I would want to see all of the related parts from the cylinders, to rods, to gears, to universal yokes, and anything else to be sure all of the dimensions were accurate and ran well with all proper fits.  It might be possible to make a bearing to fit those ends in much the fashion of the bearings we see on the worms in our diesels but that could be saved for later and after an inspection of the assembly.

How many of those crankshafts would you need?
Mark G.

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #61 on: February 27, 2020, 08:01:43 PM »
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Those round things are not bearings for the crankshaft as a whole (assuming we're talking about the same thing).
They are where the valve lifters ride.

Here is one in this shot- next to the drive gear.
Is that what you're asking about?

Ron Bearden
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"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

narrowminded

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #62 on: February 27, 2020, 08:18:21 PM »
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Those round things are not bearings for the crankshaft as a whole (assuming we're talking about the same thing).
They are where the valve lifters ride.

Here is one in this shot- next to the drive gear.
Is that what you're asking about?



Yes, Ron.  That's what I thought I saw but wasn't appearing on the solid shaft example shown.  I'm guessing there should be one each of those next to each crank throw.  These are the things I would need to be sure of fits as a few thousandths either way can be everything.  Knowing the honest numbers it can be made to fit and function well, no screwing around. ;)  It also occurred to me that they could be made to be actual eccentrics, introducing that action to the mix.  That would require making sure the next part could properly react to that action but we could look at that if you wanted to.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 08:28:43 PM by narrowminded »
Mark G.

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #63 on: February 27, 2020, 08:36:45 PM »
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Actually, I think it's better without those round lifter guides.

Wiseman left them off completely.   He has lifters, just no slots.   The lifters are soldered in place up on the rocker at the cylinder head and the crankshaft runs through them at the bottom. 

« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 08:41:45 PM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
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narrowminded

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #64 on: February 27, 2020, 09:40:20 PM »
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Actually, I think it's better without those round lifter guides.

Wiseman left them off completely.   He has lifters, just no slots.   The lifters are soldered in place up on the rocker at the cylinder hear and the crankshaft runs through them at the bottom.

I would be tempted to make them wiggle like real ones. :lol:  But that's probably just begging for trouble.  Leaving them out might afford the space to make those journals more robust using the space to make the crank throws a little meatier where the pins go through.  But this is all speculation at this point.  It gets easier without those flanged eccentric simulating parts.
Mark G.

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2020, 10:00:19 PM »
+1
Time to make the sound work.

After a lot of measuring and experimentation, I found a speaker with the recommended enclosure volume could fit on the left side under that screw tab.



Soberton speaker and enclosure with TCS micro plug.



This will just clear the off-set motor.  I did have to trim the shell retaining screw - otherwise it would hit the sound box.



This is about where the speaker will sit when the shell is on.



Decoder is wired up and ready to test.



Hiding the decoder inside the firebox under the worm base plate worked well- though I would still prefer that ESU made a narrower decoder.



Of course with sound, you need good electrical pickup.  I added a pickup to the tender for the insulated rail.



Here is a better view of the TCS 4-pin micro socket.  The left single plug comes from the tender, the right single plug goes to the wiring harness and decoder black wire.



« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 10:02:17 PM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2020, 10:03:46 PM »
+1
Sound test.  (this is my first sound install).

Oh, and added a headlight.


Ron Bearden
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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2020, 09:32:56 PM »
+2
I've been given the high honor and privilege of being entrusted with someone's 1st run Shay so I can examine and study it.
And astoundingly, not only has this 30 year old locomotive not had any modifications, it actually appears to be in mint condition.

So over the next few days, I'll provide some observations about this version- and it is very different from what I previously thought.

Hey @spookshow, you're going to want some of the pictures I post.

So stay tuned!




Ron Bearden
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"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.

bdennis

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2020, 08:57:00 PM »
+1
Ron, While I don't own a Shay and never will. I find your posts and threads intriguing and very informative as to the hard work that goes into making a brass locomotive run properly. Keep up the great work.
Brendan Dennis
N scale - Delaware & Hudson Champlain Division

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2020, 10:02:22 PM »
0
I forgot that there's one subsystem I overlooked till now.   The line shafts and u-joints.

I have 3 Shays in front of me (1 stock first version and 2 Wiseman) and there is a lot of variation in these parts.

Here is one u-joint disassembled. 
The fork is soldered onto a driveshaft.  (note- this is the beefy fork found in later Shays).
The barrel is part of the line shaft (the shaft is not shown).  A shaft is soldered into the hole in the barrel.
A metal strip shaped into a ring with 4 hole holds it all together.



Here the u-joint is partially assembled.  The parts appear to be made of something like nickel-silver and takes solder.



Here is the whole u-joint in place on the tender.
Note:  the beefy fork casting was originally longer at the shank, but the shank is trimmed off here for a tighter fit.   This u-joint is much stronger than the original.



Here is a socket and the ring.  Note that both pieces are cast.   The socket is very delicate.  One side of the fork has a pin and the other side has a hole.  The hole is slightly damaged in this casting.



Here is a complete lineshaft assembly in my first Wiseman Shay.
Notice that the fork is NOT beefy and is rather delicate (on the right side mounted on the end of the crankshaft).
but also notice that the shaft ALSO has a delicate fork.  Look at the left ring and just to the right of the ring, you can see the fork.   Notice that this is NOT as beefy and sturdy as the barrel piece I first showed.



This shot shows a couple of things.  Let's start on the left side and move right.
You can see that I soldered the left ring at the joint (you can see the slight solder mound). 
Then you can see the socket casting which is deformed.  This is an imperfect casting and has given me fits (I had to open it up on the inside to be usable).
Next we see a shaft with a beefy barrel.
Then a ring which I will solder one day and close that gap.
And on the far right, we can just see a beefy fork with an untrimmed long shank.



Here is a better view of the delicate fork.  I like the beefy fork better.



Here is a very delicate u-joint.
Both the fork on the right side of the ring and the shaft coming out of the left side of the ring (you can just see the fork) are all delicate.



Here is a better view of the un-trimmed beefy fork.  Notice the long shank.
Now if you go back to the first photo, you can see where they trimmed the shank off to make a short fork.
You should also note to the left of the ring that the socket looks different.  It is not a casting but appears to be simply bent metal (and is stronger).


Here is a better view of the tougher u-joint.  You can see the non-cast socket.   But notice something else.... there is no delicate fork mounted to the crankshaft (just behind the ring).  Instead, as seen in this view, there is a barrel mounted right onto the crankshaft.  This is much stronger than the delicate fork, and yet still space-saving.








« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 10:08:08 PM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2020, 10:11:47 PM »
0
One other comment on the rings.   The cast rings work with a more delicate u-joint system.   However, their advantage is that the ring is perfectly symmetrical.

On the other hand, the ring made from a curved piece of metal make for a joint that is more serviceable and allows stronger parts.
The down side is that they are rarely perfectly symmetrical.   This is especially noticeable when the Shay is running and thus shows a noticeable wobble in the rings.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 10:59:48 AM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
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u18b

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2020, 10:57:48 AM »
0
It's been fun to have the privileged of examining a stock 1st version Shay.
Special thanks to David Vandevander for the loan.
While my first Shay almost 30 years ago was this very version, I was new to the hobby and did not tinker with it.    So there are a lot of things I'm just learning having this loaner in my hands.




This Shay is in practically mint condition.  David keeps it in a display case.  It is gorgeous.
And still has the exhaust pipe for the generator intact (they usually get broken off).



One difference between the old Shay (bottom) and the revised/recalled Shay (top) is the drawbar to the tender.  The 1st version pulls the tender closer- and I like it.   Not certain about running characteristics since I have not run it much yet.



The drawbar is cast as a projection from the tender frame. 



Here is the underside.  You can see this is all one frame casting.
If this breaks off, you will have to make a serious mod to fix it.



Here is the revised tender frame.  They cut the frame and provided a pad with a drilled and tapped hole for the drawbar and screw.



While we're at the tender, the tender truck has no cross-brace screwed to it on the bottom side.   I added one for David since I had a spare.




« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 11:01:32 AM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2020, 11:12:29 AM »
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Of course the primary spotting feature of a 1st version Shay is the underside of the rear cab truck.
There is a huge gear on one axle and a worm in the middle of the truck.



There is not screw that retains this truck.  Instead, the worm itself holds the truck on the locomotive.  And the worm forms the pivot point for the truck.



Just above the worm in this shot, you can see the electrical pickup for the insulated wheels.



Here is another view.
I notice in this shot that the pick-up on the far wheel is not touching the wheel and needs adjusting in the future.
The pickup is held in a plastic insulated assembly and screwed to the truck frame.



Here is the front truck.  Notice the pickup is mounted on the cross-brace.



Ron Bearden
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u18b

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2020, 11:19:27 AM »
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Here is the pickup assembly.
The white part with the shoulder is the start.  Then the pickup goes on the thinner part.   Then the white washer locks it in place.



The assembly is then screwed in place.   To the cross-brace on the front truck and the the floor of the rear truck (when looking at the bottom).
(note this screw is a little long and would need to be trimmed.   I assembled this from my spare parts).



Ron Bearden
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u18b

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Re: The Overland/Wiseman brass Western Maryland Shay thread
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2020, 11:34:18 AM »
0
Here is a potential problem with the 1st version Shay.

The entire cylinder assembly is held on by this on thin plate soldered to the bottom.  To be honest, I'm not sure that's strong enough to take the  stress of heavy use.


Remember that in the revised Shay, they mounted a big fat L-shaped plate that became the base for the worm - as shown here...



... which then turned down behind the cylinder assembly.   The cylinder assembly was then soldered to this heavy piece (the blue arrow is partially covering the L-shaped piece).


As stated previously, the solder joints at the large piece are a problem in the revised Shay.  If this is the case, I would think the working stress on the 1st version would cause that plate to have a tendency to come loose..
Here is the first version again.



That thin plate is about 1/3 the thickness of the revised plate.  Consequently, when you handle the Shay and touch the cylinders, you can feel them "give."  Not good.    Too much, and the solder joint my pop loose at the bottom.
And that's exactly what I now think happened to the sample at OMI.  Look at the ad again.  The cylinders are soldered in tightly to their base.  But yet the rear cylinder is pushed in.  My assumption is that the thin base has popped loose with a broken solder joint on that left side.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 11:38:14 AM by u18b »
Ron Bearden
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"All get what they want-- not all like what they get."  Aslan the Lion in the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S.Lewis.