TCS Universal Wi-Fi Throttles Are Shipping

[peteski]

Strange question but... does the scroll wheel "click"?

I don't exactly remember.  I do recall that its action was much smoother than the NCE's. If it had a "click", it was very gentle.

[C855B]

In the TCS clinic at Amherst, we seemed to find a potential issue with consisting.  When multiple TCS throttles are in use, and one "consists" 2 locos, it appeared that other throttles connected to the same command station (by WiFi) were still able to address/control individual locos in that consist. ...

Confirmed this evening that JMRI is the problem when it comes to two (or multiple!) throttles controlling the same loco, in a consist or otherwise. Curious if the Digitrax WiFi interface is smarter in this regard.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Mike,
I briefly tested out that throttle.  It fells (and looks) like a smaller version of the NCE (old System One) ProCab throttle. Well, it has a more modern display, (better than the 16-character 2-line display) but still fairly low-res monochrome LCD.  The speed encoder knob works much smoother than NCE's.

It works ok, but we still have the old problem of 0-9 numeric keypad.  I wish some American manufacturer would come out with a throttle which has direct control (button) for functions above F9.  Especially with all those complex sound decoders which use many more than the 0-9 functions.  Another thing I think would be really easily implemented in any modern throttle (which likely has more processing power and memory than an early IBM PC) would be more customization.   It is all done in software nowadays, so why not make it more flexible?  For example, I would love to be able to have choice for each function to be either momentary or latching (again thinking of sound  decoder control).

Going back to the display, it is not something I would have expected in a product that just came out in the second decade of the 21st Century.  Even Digitrax seems to have embraced a color LCD display (in their Zephyr, and possibly in new handhelds) with higher resolution than when the TCS throttle uses.

All the above mentioned comments aside, the throttle was easy to use, and worked well (in the 5 minutes or so that I played with it). And it did have some cool features (I don't recall any specifics though).

This. I would like to see something like the ESU throttle with additional programmable soft buttons. And why, for the love of god, with all this computing power, do we need to adjust everything using CVs?

Make a throttle that is smart enough to know what decoder it is working with in program mode.
Have the throttle play around with CVs while giving a straight forward menu to the user.
Volume adjustment? Slide a scale.
Start voltage? Slide a scale.
Top voltage? Slide a scale.
Lighting effects? Use a clear English menu to select type and slide a scale for speed/duration.
Forward/reverse trim? Slide a scale.

Bonus points if the scale can be adjusted using the throttle knob.

Make a layout profile that would auto program every sound decoder with the same settings - F1 for lights, F2 for horn, F3 for bell, etc.
Make the throttle able to download and deploy sound files from various manufacturers to their decoders. Why, WHY do I need a ESU programmer if I own an ESU throttle? Why can't it deploy a Zimo sound file to a Zimo decoder? WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?

We are still forced to use a command line interface in an age where a fridge has a GUI and an internet connection. This ***** needs to stop. We are using the same basic input methods as a MITS Altair from the early 70's.

And people wonder why model trains are dying out.

[greenwizard88]

This. I would like to see something like the ESU throttle with additional programmable soft buttons. And why, for the love of god, with all this computing power, do we need to adjust everything using CVs?

Make a throttle that is smart enough to know what decoder it is working with in program mode.
Have the throttle play around with CVs while giving a straight forward menu to the user.
Volume adjustment? Slide a scale.
Start voltage? Slide a scale.
Top voltage? Slide a scale.
Lighting effects? Use a clear English menu to select type and slide a scale for speed/duration.
Forward/reverse trim? Slide a scale.

Bonus points if the scale can be adjusted using the throttle knob.

Make a layout profile that would auto program every sound decoder with the same settings - F1 for lights, F2 for horn, F3 for bell, etc.
Make the throttle able to download and deploy sound files from various manufacturers to their decoders. Why, WHY do I need a ESU programmer if I own an ESU throttle? Why can't it deploy a Zimo sound file to a Zimo decoder? WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?

We are still forced to use a command line interface in an age where a fridge has a GUI and an internet connection. This ***** needs to stop. We are using the same basic input methods as a MITS Altair from the early 70's.

And people wonder why model trains are dying out.

Congrats! You've just described Decoder Pro, part of JMRI. Seriously, just use JMRI.

[EspeeGoldenState]

Congrats! You've just described Decoder Pro, part of JMRI. Seriously, just use JMRI.

Not entirely true, you cant upload sound to a LokSound decoder using JMRI.

Well, I'm sorry I don't think a fridge, washer/dryer, or whatever appliance needs wifi and a touch screen. I just bought a dishwasher for the wife that has wifi, just another thing that can wrong with it and cost a fortune.

As for why every DCC manufacturer does their own thing, no different than said appliance either. There is not a ruling body that dictates how to communicate.

Chris

[reinhardtjh]

This. I would like to see something like the ESU throttle with additional programmable soft buttons. And why, for the love of god, with all this computing power, do we need to adjust everything using CVs?

Make a throttle that is smart enough to know what decoder it is working with in program mode.
Have the throttle play around with CVs while giving a straight forward menu to the user.

Blame the NMRA (That's sarcasm). They didn't assign every possible thing you might want to change to a specific CV.  Sure, there are some that are described in the NMRA standard, but then the decoder manufacturers got creative and came up with a whole host (thousands, in the case of ESU) of new ways to modify decoder behavior and lo and behold, none of them use the same CV.  So your smart throttle would have to know every different one and know what decoder is in the locomotive.

Make the throttle able to download and deploy sound files from various manufacturers to their decoders. Why, WHY do I need a ESU programmer if I own an ESU throttle? Why can't it deploy a Zimo sound file to a Zimo decoder? WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?

Because the methods of loading the sound files are proprietary and ESU/Zimo/etc won't tell you how it's done.  One point for Digitrax is that they do tell you how and JMRI can do it (most of the time, it still has a few problems, or did last time I checked), but nobody else is talking.

As pointed out below, most of this is what JMRI does.  Something that has taken thousands of man-hours to create and is continually in development.  No DCC throttle mfg can do that and sell a throttle for the price people will pay.

Congrats! You've just described Decoder Pro, part of JMRI. Seriously, just use JMRI.

[reinhardtjh]

Well, I'm sorry I don't think a fridge, washer/dryer, or whatever appliance needs wifi and a touch screen. I just bought a dishwasher for the wife that has wifi, just another thing that can wrong with it and cost a fortune.
Chris

And can be hacked...

[C855B]

... and ESU/Zimo/etc won't tell you how it's done.  ...

Welcome to German software culture. I dealt with this problem for a goodly portion of my career. Be thankful they aren't bricking your decoder after five firmware uploads.

I understand your rancor about CVs, etc., but bear in mind this only became a serious problem with sound decoders. In the relative scheme of things it is a young technology, versus the old-in-the-tooth DCC system design. DCC's data rates and protocols weren't designed for the "consume mass quantities" data transfers required by digital sound.

And even though I'm not a sound user, I feel your pain with ESU decoders. It took nearly an hour to download the CVs on two LokPilots just because I wanted to change headlight direction response. JMRI didn't know what to tweak until the whole dataset was known. Frustrating.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Congrats! You've just described Decoder Pro, part of JMRI. Seriously, just use JMRI.

Because it just doesn't like to work. I've had two NCE USB interface boards that won't work with my Power Cab. Swapped laptops, still no go. It's a kludge system interfacing on another kludge system. It still doesn't fix any issues with the throttle. Or ase of use on setup. It requires additional hardware and technical knowledge that beginners do not have.

No, it's not a solution.

We need something that a new modeler can use in a few minutes without having to learn binary or hex numbers to program CVs. This isn't hard. Universal remotes have a way of dialing into a specific TV and infrared protocol. Decoders have a manufacturer number. A good throttle should be able to auto find a decoder specification and adapt to it.

Look, I'm not speaking to the converted. We have learned DCC and all its faults over the years. We know the work arounds. But this is not a good solution. Technology should adapt and grow. And DCC has been stagnant for far too long. The current system needs to be dragged behind the shed and shot. For model trains to survive, we need interfaces that are on par with drones, or video games, or computers in general. Otherwise, why would anyone new pick this hobby over anything else?

[Maletrain]

... I've had two NCE USB interface boards that won't work with my Power Cab. Swapped laptops, still no go. ...

Do you have the v1.65b chip in your PowerCab?  I have heard that the original v1.65 chip (not "b") has problems with the NCE USB interface.

[jdcolombo]

We need something that a new modeler can use in a few minutes without having to learn binary or hex numbers to program CVs. This isn't hard. Universal remotes have a way of dialing into a specific TV and infrared protocol. Decoders have a manufacturer number. A good throttle should be able to auto find a decoder specification and adapt to it.

Completely agree.  All this is possible (with the exception of loading sound files, which involves a proprietary protocol).  In fact, as others have noted, it's all already been done in the context of JMRI.  There's no reason JMRI-like code couldn't be stored in a handheld device.  Adopt a common protocol, like Wi-Throttle, that is built in to every command station.  Voila.  Then it just becomes a matter of whether one prefers touch screens or hard buttons (personally, I like a combination - I think ESU's Mobile Control II has it pretty much right, but there are a couple of ergonomic quirks they need to fix).  Advanced wi-fi throttles like the ESU or TCS already cost $300 - but so does a decent steam loco with sound, or two sound-equipped diesels.  The hardware is already capable, with advanced microprocessors running the show.  The rest is just programming.  (Yeah, I know - "just" - my son is a software engineer for Microsoft, so I DO appreciate that it is somewhat harder than it sounds.  But not THAT hard).

DCC's interface is from the 1980's.  It's 2020.  Time to get with the program.

John C.

[Steveruger45]

Stumbled across this.
http://wifitrax.com/products/product-WFD-30-detail.html

Might be interesting and somewhat related to this conversation.

[C855B]

A teaser. More when we get to the layout studio later today:



A limited number of early orders received a commemorative stoneware cup, and this medallion:

[C855B]

UWT-100 relaxing against the grain elevators at Cozad:



Executive Summary: This is now my favorite throttle. By far. It just works, and very well. User interface (mostly) clear, so much so I still have not read the instructions.

Setup - No problem unboxing, 'cept coaxing the supplied AA batteries out of their shrinkwrap.    Battery door obvious and easy, so I appreciate the time and attention TCS was paying to this portion of the case; product release was delayed because they were tweaking the case tooling.

Power-Up and Connection to WiFi - No power on/off switch, hold any button to power up, then prompt to press '2' to start. Initial startup prompts to find a WiFi network. No problem there... other than the password sequence. Given the lack of alpha keys the password screen has you scroll through a (long!) list of characters and symbols, confirming each one. Seen that before, so it was obvious... until... you need to input numbers. No numbers in the big list. So demerits here for incomplete UI, you go "off menu" to the numeric keys for numbers. Obvious, but not obvious.

Other than that, connection was then immediate. I didn't explore what happens with a bad password.

Selecting/Running a Loco - Easy enough. Press the key with the locomotive symbol. You are presented with the list from the JMRI roster, scroll with up/down buttons or scroll the list with the wheel. Or you could simply just enter the loco number. Done, and you are rewarded with the main loco operation screen, use scroll wheel or up/down to control speed. Direction control immediately below scroll wheel.

I agree with @peteski about the ability to control direction with the scroll wheel. If speed=0, then scroll up for forward, scroll down for reverse. That's the way WiThrottle works in its shunting UI. Should be an optional setting. BTW, scroll wheel is smooth, no clicks. However, it has just enough resistance to feel in control, that it isn't going to run away from you. Nice.

Consisting - not quite as clear as it should be. I expected it to be an option from the 'loco' button, but no, it is a menu with a submenu. Setting direction of trailing units wasn't super-obvious, requiring a forehead-slap of how and when to select the direction of an added unit. Otherwise, worked fine.

I ran two consists simultaneously without issue. The first function key switches between two running trains. And, oh, the 'recall' menu - OMG, recalling previously entered consists from a list was a real joy - no standing there tediously reprogramming just because you released a train too soon.

Beware the E-stop! One press of E-stop controls only the displayed choice, two presses shuts power off entirely. Bad (to me) feature of E-stop is it doesn't zero the speed, as soon as you move the wheel or up/down, it resumes where it was E-stopped. If master E-stop is executed, a single press afterwards then restores power and speeds. I dunno if that's the way other controllers (or JMRI) works, but that IMO s a whole basket of disaster in the making.

Turnout Control - Straightforward-ish, but not the operation I would prefer. Press the key with the turnout icon and you are presented with a scrollable list of turnouts as programmed into JMRI. No obvious "closed" or "thrown", simply a toggle either from an F-key or using the enter/return key at the bottom of the keypad. Adding to this questionable function is lack of current position information - WiThrottle has that, so the status is somewhere in the handshake. Unnamed turnouts can be controlled by entering the accessory number and pressing a toggle key. Recommendation to TCS - there is a blank F-key on the turnout page. You need to have separate "closed" and "thrown" keys, toggling makes no sense if you're not standing right over the turnout. And add status.

Reminder to self - remove the names from "daughter" linked turnouts on crossovers so two names don't appear in the scroll list.

There you have it, from an hour of hands-on with the UWT-100. Mikey likes it, and it will be my go-to from here on out. If the E-stop and turnout control were fixed, Mikey would love it.

[jdcolombo]

Crap.

Positive review means that now I'm going to have to get one of these to try it myself.

Ah, well.  That's what hobbies are for . . .

John C.