Author Topic: PRR D16sb research for a build  (Read 15345 times)

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randgust

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #136 on: September 20, 2021, 11:04:59 AM »
+5
Hey, I'm back after this baby has been sitting unpainted for months

I'm doing 1046, and if you go back in the thread you'll see the photo of it that I'm studying.    Here's what I notice.

While 1223 is all nicely striped up right to the end of PRR service, 1046 was certainly not.   You can still see a little gloss under the coal dusting, but not a whole lot.   The only lettering visible is the PENNSYLVANIA and the locomotive number.   While not filthy, definitely not shop-fresh and wiped down every night either.

Most PRR steam out in the boonies tended to look rather coal-dusty, while there might have been DGLE under there to begin with, it's under layers of coal smoke dust most of the time.    I did my GHQ L-1 that way and it looks wonderful, so I'll do this one  little less but similar.   This starts out with the high-gloss paint scheme, decaling, and works up, this is the 'as released from the shop' builders photo.

The only real trick I pulled so far is the smokebox.   If you look at 1046, it's a different shade, it's not jacketed.   It was 'graphite' in PRR, and if you look at 1223 in the museum, it's gray-silver.   Well that's not it either, not in service, so I started with Floquil Old Silver and then dry-rubbed Floquil Graphite in it with a stiff-edged brush, and that looks like about what I want.

Frame, wheels, etc. are all grimy black, that may be too gray, but I like to be able to see the detail, you certainly can in the 1046 photo. 
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg
That's one of those things that's like no matter how many color shots I see of PRR steam, the overall impression is always grimy black, except for the ones in the museum.

Yes, the boiler is nose high, I didn't put the screw in just for the photo, as I'm painting darn near everything as a separate assembly.  Rods are already Neolubed at the moving parts, it wears off, but easy to put back on as well.



Yeah, this is just way, way too glossy, but I'm hoping that the same treatment I did with the L1 works here, which was a diluted wash of grimy black pretty much over everything, but not to the point you can't read lettering or tell original color.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 11:11:03 AM by randgust »

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #137 on: September 20, 2021, 11:54:11 AM »
0
Excuse me while I go pick myself up off the floor.

randgust

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #138 on: September 30, 2021, 08:29:49 AM »
0
Update as this thing is 'almost' done.   But there's a certain impression that modelers get that 'other people don't have these problems' and at this point I don't mine admitting mine, if for no other reason than to encourage others to hang in there despite themselves.

After those last shots, it's finish it up time.   I did a couple washes of watered-down grimy black over the Badger PRR color, that worked well just like L-1, pretty much as planned.   So then it's time to put on the coal pile.   I'd just done it on the L-1, and did it as follows:

- layer of Walthers Goo on the bottom, sprinkle on coal bottom layer, let dry.    This gives it some grip and also seals any leaks into the tender body when I hit it with diluted glue..
- build up the full coal pile, quick alcohol and water spray, hit with 50% diluted glue.

Easy, right?   L-1 worked perfect, right?   So this will too, right?

Next day I have unexplained white marks all over the tender body... whether glue or alcohol reaction to the paint, can't tell, but it doesn't wipe off.   So, that's right, repaint the tender sides where damaged, as when I tried to clean it, some came off all the way down to the etched brass.  %$##!!

That's never happened before.   Oh well.   So, repaint, re-wash.... blend in...   damage repaired.   2 evenings later. 

So then on to finishing some final details.   And I have to admit, this is where Railwire comes in.   The Max Factor.    Without you guys I might have about stopped, but I'm looking at it wondering.....should I try that??   OK, crew in the cab.  Yeesh, why did I fill everything full of lead, amputate the guys at the chest.   And, my favorite, an evening of trying to understand and paint PRR classification lights.  And paint lenses smaller than a fly eye on those helmet-style prints from Keystone Details.   Gotta try though.

And finally, if you look back at the front, the number plate is painfully obvious.  And tiny.  And, yes, while I found a GHQ casting for the right one, round with the lip, it's still damn small.   And of course, I'm not content with any old 4-digit number here, it's either "1046 or bust".  Darn you Max.  I've got to get on those individual gold PRR decaled digits inside that number plate....  as of last night, 3 of 4 in place.

I'm still looking at Max's bell rope on the 0-6-0, I think thats where I concede to the master, or say that I can't see it in the photo and maybe there's an air line to the bell and a cylinder out of sight.  "Yeah, that's the ticket'   But it's coming, and the part I like the best is the grimy black wash over the Badger is looking 'right', at least to me, and the even better part is that after all the painting, messing around, re-messing around, it still runs as good as it did before, and that part really, really is what I'm happy and somewhat astounded at.  I've come up with a bunch of projects that look great on film and after the initial euphoria, have to admit that they are essentially practical failures - my EMC 40 leading that pack.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 08:47:10 AM by randgust »

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #139 on: September 30, 2021, 08:37:41 AM »
0
Keep up the fight. You're doing the lord's work.

mmagliaro

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #140 on: September 30, 2021, 01:53:21 PM »
0
Ha ha ha... I appreciate the flattering remarks...
And sooo... I'm a gonna "help" you!   (Meaning I am going to goad you into doing the bell rope   :) )

Here' s a photo from the RR Museum of PA, of a D16, that very clearly shows the bell rope, and where it hooks through a series
of what look like eye bolts on its way from the bell to the cab.  (I marked all the points with white lines as you can see).

The nutty one is where it reaches the cab, and then takes a hard right turn running along the cab wall for a little bit before it
goes through the wall.

I've used .006" brass wire from Detail Associates or  the rubbery thin Berkshire Junction EZ Line (which is what I used on the 0-6-0).
I think they both look nice.  The EZ Line has the added feature that it actually wiggles and sways a little if you handle or breathe on the model, which is cool because it's more like real rope.  But the brass wire is actually thinner, and once you get it in place and epoxy all the attachment points, you can just run a toothpick on it with light pressure from hook to hook, and each segment of it will form into a really natural dip.





Oh, and as for engine numbers... ain't no easy way.  I try to find at least two digits together that I need on the decal sheet,
but if they aren't there, then it's one digit at a time.   I just put one on, let it set, use Solvaset to really stick it on there, let it thoroughly harden, put a brushful of Dullcote over it (spray some on a piece of cardboard, dip a little brush in it and swipe it over the decal)... and when all that is dry, do the next digit.  This takes hours and hours of waiting time for drying, but not a lot of actual modeling time.  Best to just chip away at these while you go work on something else so you won't be tempted to rush it,
move one of the existing digits, have to scrape them off and start again, utter sequences of VERY BAD WORDS... and so on.
(not that I've ever actually done that or anything...)


« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 01:55:30 PM by mmagliaro »

Ed Kapuscinski

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #141 on: September 30, 2021, 02:03:52 PM »
0
So this is an odd option, but what about an actual hair?

I have plenty of german shepherd ones I could send you...

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randgust

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2021, 03:14:19 PM »
0
Ah, Max, but the trick is here (as I've stumbled into several times) I'm not doing the 1223, and 1046 has odd differences all over the place.

Looking at this photo of 1046, and blowing it up in Photoshop, I can see where the bell rope OUGHT to be and can see eyelets on the domes, but I can't see it.  On the engineers side of the bell bracket, there's something, looks like an air line, which is making me wonder if it was converted to an air ringer but I can't see a cylinder or a crank, either..... but the bell crank on the fireman's side is certainly there.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1046s.jpg

I still want to try one of your bell rope stunts, but if some SPF can confirm that's an air ringer conversion I'm good with what I've done.

I'm just grateful that 1046 doesn't have all that decorative passenger striping.   I think doing that pilot would put me over the edge.   I've got all the number plate digits on except "6" and that is tonight.   My tip is never, ever, try to do that many individual digits at once.   One or two, let it dry, hit it with solvaset, come back the next day.

I'm grateful to my Dad for triggering my imagination on all this, the details he told me as a boy have been confirmed in my research, particularly the part about the doodlebug one year and a steam engine the second on the Oil City-Olean local.   The 1930 Official Guide shows two daily 'trains' up and down the river, one being a motorcar and one a regular local - which according to several books, was the last regular assignment of a D16 by PRR up to 1937 when that photo was taken.  Dad said it wasn't particularly fast, too many curves, never broke about 45mph.  I know 1223 was in Delaware but it must have been the seasonal beach trains or specials or backup.

I still have property in the valley and I can look across the river and see that now-abandoned grade on the steep valley hillside, and it's not all that hard to imagine a short local behind a D16 charging upriver.   I have one distinct memory of steam on that line as a kid, my dad made sure I saw it -  a long line of slow-moving gray and weathered steam locomotives headed up the river, no smoke.  I think what I saw was a deadheaded move to scrapping in Buffalo, maybe about 1960.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 03:20:03 PM by randgust »

mmagliaro

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2021, 05:23:50 PM »
0
Randy,
After more poking around, and looking in my books, I cannot find a single example of a PRR 4-4-0 that has a bell rope (except for the one in Strasburg), at least not one you can see in the photo.  The rope is big enough, and goes past enough domes, that it would be almost impossible to not see at least some of it if it were there.  So I vote with you, it is probably converted to a pneumatic ringer.  The air line for those sometimes went right under the outer boiler jacket, so you might not even see the line, or it would be on the opposite side from where the rope is.  Here's a photo of an O Scale brass model of an NP 2-8-2 with what clearly appears to be the air line poking up through the jacket and going to the bell.  I highlighted it with a white arrow.  You don't see a piston on the bell.  The air line goes up inside it, and in N scale, you'd never see it.  I put this little line poking up from the boiler on my N Scale model just because I saw it in this photo (but I also add a bell rope anyway, just because they are cool)



So I think your "plausible deniability" is sound.




randgust

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #144 on: October 01, 2021, 08:39:16 AM »
0
OK, well, I may have dodged the bell rope idea but now look what you've done.

That great shot, and going back at looking at the photos.   Man, that builders plate looks fantastic on your model (yeah, O scale, but still), and it's also painfully obvious on 1223 and 1046.

Other than home-brew decal printing of a PRR oval builders plate, does anybody have any builders plate decals like this?   I have some diesel builders plate decals, but they are painfully not this shape.   And they show up rather nicely, I do them regularly.

http://www.altoonaworks.info/pics/stuff/js_3078.jpg

I'm not going to be so fussy that they have to be "D16sb" and the right construction number, but a black oval with brass trim and lettering in it is probably a whole lot more noticeable than some other things I could do, and bigger than my fly-eye lens painting.

Ah....Duh.   As I'm searching for non-existent decals I suddenly come up with GMM 160-42 GMM etched brass steam details, and not only are there two 'oval shaped' etched brass ones on there...but I'm pretty sure I have that set, as that's where I got the brake hangers from.     :facepalm:
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 10:47:56 AM by randgust »

randgust

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #145 on: October 02, 2021, 09:32:31 AM »
+2
OK, well, I think the story will be 'Max made me do it'....

Anyway, this is the numbering of the number board shot, which draws a solid '10' in the degree of difficulty in my world....

That's a GMM (not GHQ) etched number board in brass, painted black, decaled, and then gently scraped around the edges to expose the brass edge.  That's as good as I can get it here.   



Now on the builders plate, the ovals are too big, and while there's an oval underneath one of the number boards that's the right size, I found that Tichy actually made N steam builders plates - with color and relief - and found some on line, so I ordered a set.   There's ovals in there that look PRR, along with several others.  So it will be a few days until those show up.

You can also see the grimy black wash impact over the Badger PRR green, yeah, it barely looks green at all, mild sheen, just what I wanted.

metalworkertom

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #146 on: October 02, 2021, 12:54:37 PM »
0
Excellent work Randy . Always a Inspiration , as well as many others here.

randgust

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #147 on: October 09, 2021, 09:11:37 PM »
+3
I was rather stunned that these showed up on the auction site, because they showed up nowhere else, including the Tichy web site.   May no longer be made?  Anyway, Tichy Train Group Builders Plates 20 pr 10183N.  (make sure you order with the N because the one without it is HO).  Anyway, though absurdly small, very well done decals, raised, and in color.

Now for the skeptics... take a look.... you can actually see them.  And you can see them from the 3-foot rule too.   I found an oval pair with brass letters that looked "PRR" enough for me, and on they went.  I like them so much I'm reluctant to weather them!   Now I have to look around at my other steam and decide which ones have builders plates 'worthy' of this cherry on the top.

Darn you Max, you've got me looking at a detail I've intentionally ignored for years!



That's about the cherry on the top for this project.   It's supposed to be a nice day around here tomorrow and Monday, so I hope to drag the Trunkeyville T-trak module outside for some photos with 1046.  It ran by that depot, it was a flagstop on its schedule.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 09:14:04 PM by randgust »

mmagliaro

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #148 on: October 10, 2021, 12:27:39 AM »
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Randy,
I think the builder plate is an improvement.  To be honest, I really can't read anything on it, but it's got the raised oval and some gold-ish lettering in it, and nobody can possibly read something like that with their unaided eyes, so it's a great detail to put on there.

And if I'm to blame for getting you to do it, well, I'm happy to be of service!

randgust

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Re: PRR D16sb research for a build
« Reply #149 on: October 13, 2021, 02:07:00 PM »
+6
Well, we're about getting to the end of this one.     But here you go, this is what I was shooting for here.

I never, ever would have been able to get this 'done' (year and a half now) without help from the forum members on resources, and parts, ideas, inspiration - and particularly Mark 'Narrowminded' Graulty on doing the precise drive wheel and axle work after my first attempt failed.   This one is really a team project in my eyes.

This one has been on my lifetime bucket list of builds since I found out about the last stomping grounds of D16's were right here in my back yard, literally, and that this one probably took my father to college.   And when I first saw 1223 run back about 1988.

Compare this to the previous 'gloss' shot, this is just a light wash of acrylic Grimy Black over everything, and it's just barely greenish if you look for it, with a still-visible gloss underneath - compared to the 1046 photo I've got this is the general look.   Weathered but not worn and well maintained.  I'm really fussy about finish and paint (probably more so than rivet-level details) so 'hitting it' on the look to me is more important than exact detail where compromises have to be made.   And it has to run as good as it looks or no point even finishing it.



I've got one more shot for the group here of 1046 but I'll hold that off for the weekend update, and I'll be working on a video here too.

I still have another on my 'looks impossible' bucket list is a really accurate model of a 47-ton Heisler.... someday....

For those of you that have hung in here over the last year, yes, deep under this in the belly of the beast is still this drive .. which at the time, seemed like the most absurd way to ever attempt this, yet has actually worked.  That 'temporary' brass wire drawbar hook is still in there, all but invisible, but proved to be the permanent method of attachment that was still removable.



The other thing I questioned was if completely abandoning the locomotive end for electrical pickup would work - relying only on the tender and end-axle pickups on the Kato caboose trucks.   It's proven to be completely effective, and meant I had nothing dragging on the drivers - no wipers,no complication on the axles or plastic Bachmann frame.  The only two wires between locomotive and tender do the headlight.   That I never expected to actually work, allowed me to keep the traction tire axle, and absolutely balance the boiler weight on the axles so that it tracked right.  This whole tender drive gearhead thing was pioneered by Chris333 in his Atlas 2-6-0, I'm just moving the ball downfield.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 02:34:39 PM by randgust »