Post downvoting is coming back

[Rivet Miscounter]

OK, I see part of the problem.  I did use your particular post as a convenient example of what I consider a wide spread exaggeration of the "negativity issue" and used it to illustrate my point.  But, I certainly was not trying to numerically "prove you wrong" with what I posted, and, in your response on the other thread, you did not seem to take it that way.  But, what you just posted above shows me that you still felt somehow that I was nit-picking you like a "grammar nazi". 

What this illustrates to me, at least, is the tendency for people to be over sensitive to disagreement and to grab an excuse to vilify someone who disagrees with them, taking the discussion into personal argument. 

So, as I said in my post, above, I am going to stop trying to post counter opinions that don't agree with the people who are intent on posting negatives about this forum.

But, before I quit this thread, I will apologize for using your post as an example.  It was never my intent to try to embarrass you or to try to make myself appear to be "smarter" than you.  I am sorry you took it that way.

Well, I will apologize as well as I'm guilty of doing the exact same thing...using your post as an example.   And for the record, a much less egregious example and indirectly lumped you in with the small group that is causing the bulk of the issues in my mind.

I disagree that my issues have anything to do with being embarrassed or "oversensitive to disagreement" and I could really care less if you are smarter than me or not.   There are plenty of people smarter than me, and I very fine with that. (and thankful, for those that are applying their gifts)   My issue is with the few in this group that are constantly nitpicking every detail of every post, applying this "negative pressure" to everything they touch, not being respectful and decent to others, and generally taking a hobby forum and trying to exert their stamp on everything...instead of letting it be a fun place to enjoy fellowship with other modelers, and ideally try to learn new things, without the constant pecking about frivolity.  I could go on and on about the history of all this but it's really not pertinent to our direct interaction.

I do agree that I am negative on occasion, but that is not born from an unsolicited origin.  So in essence...are the folks who are negative on this forum a symptom that is part of this problem, or a side-effect of the real disease?  That is the question that needs asking.

[ednadolski]

So ideally at this point, if you love and care about me, everyone will "get" the point and nicely move along!

Apologies @tom mann ,  we do of course care, but after seeing how this is continuing with a life of its own, I'd like to just put in another (hopefully last) $0.02:

- I think folks become sensitive because everyone's individual vote tally is labeled as "Respect".  So any downvote can (unsurprisingly, really, and perhaps even necessarily) be taken personally as a message of 'disrespect', regardless of a voter's actual intent.   Simple solution:  re-label the tally as something more abstract and less personal-sounding (e.g., "Vote Tally" or such), or (better yet) don't display any tally at all.  We would still see the +/- count on individual posts, but it would be disassociated with personal respect.  (It also de-motivates any 'revenge' down-voting, at least to some degree.)   Maybe also re-labeling the up/down arrows as "Agree/Disagree" would also help defuse any personalization concerns (even more so than "Like/Dislike").

- Can you please increase the "Ignore Topics" limit?  I think we need a higher number, just because there are more topics being posted nowadays, so the current count does wrap.

HTH,
Ed

[Maletrain]

If some people are really getting this negative, then I think "revenge downvoting" is probably going to be a real issue for some.  I had not thought about that before, but I just checked, and I can still down-vote things that were posted in 2010!  (Yes, I quickly undid the test vote.)  So, because nobody's "respect" count exceeds their post count, it is possible for one person to go through the forum and down vote every post that somebody has ever made, just to "get" him for some perceived aggravation.  One person could do that to anybody, even to Peteski with his enormous counts in both categories.  And, if we really get some nasty trolls like I have seen on other (non railroad) forums, it is also possible for somebody to make a "second account" in a fake name and then go through and up vote themselves on every post they have ever made. Those potential abuses pretty much makes the "respect" total count meaningless, because, once the negativity erupts, nobody really knows to what extent that has been done to somebody, recently or long ago.

So, I am going to agree with ednadolski that it would be best to stop posting the members' "respect" totals. 

I have tried to limit my own up votes to posts that either provide useful advice or show good cooperative efforts between other members, because that is what "respect" means to me.  I rarely have made a "down vote", because that means "disrespect to me.  But, it seems that others use different criteria, such as "agree" and "disagree", to the point that the totals are not really indicative of anything more than maybe popularity.  Unless, of course, one disgruntled member has "revenge voted" an otherwise popular person's total into negative numbers.

So, I also second his notion that it might be better to relabel the votes on individual posts to "agree" and "disagree".

[peteski]

This is so sad.  Deja-vou all over again. Everything being said now has been said back in 2016-2017, when this valuable "respect" rating system has been introduced for the first time (then subsequently down-voting disabled).  Except back then I was a bit more vocal about this silly system.  Now . . . whatever. I have no say in the matter.

I highly encourage everybody here to revisit those threads (presented below in chronological order).  You'll see lots of similarities to the discussion in this thread.   

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=34118.0
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=38510.0
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=39311.0
https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=41722.0

Good luck ya-all.

[ednadolski]

I highly encourage everybody here to revisit those threads (presented below in chronological order). 

@peteski sorry but I have to disagree -- please let's move forward and not dig up the old stuff, shall we?  I don't think it really helps.

[Chris333]

Wonder if any down votes are just because the 2 arrows are right next to each other. I've went to up-vote and saw it turn red, had to un-click it and click the correct one.

[tom mann]

We had an issue years ago with some members being jerks.  We installed post voting and the issue cleared up.  A member sent me an email some time after and said he was susceptible at first but thanked me because in his opinion it worked.

So I’m just going to do it again and see if it works - no need for everyone to fly off the handle. I’ll let it run for awhile and then turn it off. No worries, no stress, just please spend  minutes modeling for every one minute you worry about it.

[VonRyan]

Wonder if any down votes are just because the 2 arrows are right next to each other. I've went to up-vote and saw it turn red, had to un-click it and click the correct one.

As someone who has fingers the size of sausages, this happens to me more often than not. I just had to learn to zoom in before tapping an arrow, and even then it still happens on occasion.

[mu26aeh]

As someone who has fingers the size of sausages, this happens to me more often than not. I just had to learn to zoom in before tapping an arrow, and even then it still happens on occasion.

Maybe to quell some of this from happening @tom mann , can the arrows be spaced slightly farther apart ?

[John]

Many of the additional features (such as the up/down) vote buttons are add on modifications to the basic forum software .. It's possible to make changes to these mod packages, it does require someone to go in and modify the code .. which may have unintended consequences .. Tom would have to do that work and then do the testing ..   In this case it might be as simple as adding a couple more spaces in the code that places the buttons, but it takes time to find, change, and test ..

The better answer would be to not have to use this tool at all ..

[eric220]

The better answer would be to not have to use this tool at all ..

Hear hear!

[peteski]

The better answer would be to not have to use this tool at all ..

And this is coming from the guy who started this all.

To use a memorable Ms. Slocumb phrase from "Are you being served" British sitcom: "and we are unanimous in that." 

[GaryHinshaw]

Don't worry, this is all temporary.  Tom has already warned us mods that he can't afford to keep so many of us on the payroll.  Soon you will start to see the rollout of AI-trained mod-bots.  The reinstatement of down votes is intended to build up a training set for the bots so that they can start getting to work on:

- Spotting trigger words: China, pre-order, board gap, Echo Canyon center-siding,  , trump,  HO, I'm just a curious person, delays, dying, track is a commodity, Ed,  , climate, kits, handlay, Tehachapi, brick & mortar, single-window, usps, Micro-Trains, MBK,  , ....

- Warning us of troublesome content before we post.  "Are you sure you want to Post that?"

- Auto-completing many of our posts with acceptable content, etc.

It's going to be great!    (I kid.)

[tom mann]

Ha ha that’s great Mr. Hinshaw. The @peteski bot won’t be able to keep up!

[Maletrain]

Don't worry, this is all temporary.  Tom has already warned us mods that he can't afford to keep so many of us on the payroll.  Soon you will start to see the rollout of AI-trained mod-bots.  The reinstatement of down votes is intended to build up a training set for the bots so that they can start getting to work on:

- Spotting trigger words: China, pre-order, board gap, Echo Canyon center-siding,  , trump,  HO, I'm just a curious person, delays, dying, track is a commodity, Ed,  , climate, kits, handlay, Tehachapi, brick & mortar, single-window, usps, Micro-Trains, MBK,  , ....

- Warning us of troublesome content before we post.  "Are you sure you want to Post that?"

- Auto-completing many of our posts with acceptable content, etc.

It's going to be great!    (I kid.)

Well, man, I wish I could up-vote that!  As satire of course!  It is satire, right?   Right?   Right?!!!  Oh boy!