Retro 1970s & 1980s N locomotives

[Point353]

*Yawn...*

Good thing that most of us weren't a Senior This or a Senior That with an employment history of making "museum-quality" models for a living, otherwise N scale would have been long dead by now. 

[robert3985]

Don't get me wrong...I'm not criticizing anybody who likes the nostalgia that the old stuff brings back.  I'm just saying why it doesn't impinge on me...probably because I never bought much of the early toy-stuff because I was already too damned detail and prototype oriented.  I waited until the early 80's before diving in, when there were some good examples of brass models that looked really great, and ran fairly well after a bit of massaging, and I could afford them.

For my own kids, I built them (WITH them) a 4X6 HO scale layout they could play with while I was working on my Ntrak modules in our basement.  I always thought that HO was mo' bettah for young-uns than the smaller scales because it was easier for them to see and work with. Later, as they grew up, my two sons were instrumental in helping me implement my concepts of my portable layout standards, and were always there assisting in every aspect of tear-down, transportation, set-up, running, crowd control, tear-down, transportation and setting it up again at home in the train room.

On the other hand, I became convinced early on that the scenery-to-track ratio of N-scale was near ideal for building large layouts with lots of scenery surrounding the small trains for a much more realistic "look" than any other scale, with the possible exception of Double-T, which I never had any direct experience with, and I worked together with some very good friends and my two sons to get the concepts actualized...and THIS is where my nostalgia is...with bringing more N-scale detail, more N-scale reliability, more N-scale fidelity and putting it on large layouts running small trains...not in snapping sectional track together, although I still use cork under all my track.

As for DCC and sound...it adds so much to the hobby that it deserves its own thread, and it totally re-invigorated my love of the hobby ten years ago.  DCC allows me to run my trains, not run my layout...and sound, even though far from "perfect" allows me to immerse myself much more into the very real aspects of running trains in relation to other trains...following very real signal/warning rules and regulations that the real railroads have.  Sure, I enjoy the sounds of the rods clanking, the bark of the steam engines and the growl/whine of turbocharged diesels, but it's the bell and the whistle emanating from those little engines that I directly control that reels me into the world of the layout.  No grinding gears will ever be equal.

So, as they say "One man's junk is another man's treasure!" and I respect that...almost...except when I see one of the old Austrian/German/Yugoslavian/Italian made models and all it does for me is to remind me that I need to get that wart on my left elbow taken off soon.   

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[robert3985]

Good thing that most of us weren't a Senior This or a Senior That with an employment history of making "museum-quality" models for a living, otherwise N scale would have been long dead by now.

Oh, right.  N-scale surely is as popular now because nobody has taken it upon themselves to improve the scale fidelity, reliability, variety and availability of the models.  And all the engineers, researchers, marketers in the N-scale model train industry surely can't be "senior" whatevers or can make "museum quality" models available because who would want those kind of hobby-killing models??  Yup, that's why N-scale never evolved and it's still all N-gauge, with code 80 sectional track, pizza cutter flanges, Rapido couplers, grass-mats on plywood, shiny RTR buildings you don't have to assemble, wonderful over-scale cast-on details, and with really great non-transistorized wound-wire-rheostat DC throttles to power it all.

Yup...Bizarro World for sure... 

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Point353]

Oh, right.  N-scale surely is as popular now because nobody has taken it upon themselves to improve the scale fidelity, reliability, variety and availability of the models.  And all the engineers, researchers, marketers in the N-scale model train industry surely can't be "senior" whatevers or can make "museum quality" models available because who would want those kind of hobby-killing models??  Yup, that's why N-scale never evolved and it's still all N-gauge, with code 80 sectional track, pizza cutter flanges, Rapido couplers, grass-mats on plywood, shiny RTR buildings you don't have to assemble, wonderful over-scale cast-on details, and with really great non-transistorized wound-wire-rheostat DC throttles to power it all.

If, as you did, everyone else had rejected those early pioneering products because they didn't run like a Swiss watch or the appearance of the track was deemed offensive, then N scale likely wouldn't have survived and evolved to reach the level of quality and fidelity to the prototype that has been achieved to date.

[robert3985]

If, as you did, everyone else had rejected those early pioneering products because they didn't run like a Swiss watch or the appearance of the track was deemed offensive, then N scale likely wouldn't have survived and evolved to reach the level of quality and fidelity to the prototype that has been achieved to date.

"If" eh?  Well, "if" everybody had demanded more prototype fidelity, running like a Swiss watch, and North American prototype-looking track as well as separate details, smaller flanges and the manufacturers determined that toy-like wasn't going to cut the mustard a few decades earlier, then the quality of today's models would be even better...because even now, over 50 years after toy-N-gauge first came on the market, some aspects of the products still remain dominantly toy-like...because N-gaugers still buy the stuff.

I am sure that acceptance of poor quality, poor detailing, poor accuracy is a highly negative influence in the world of models...but not in the world of "toys".  Asking...even demanding better things from the manufacturers and then buying only the good products is a sure way to train them to do it better....as is patently obvious in today's N-scale model railroad world.

So, my viewpoint is diametrically opposed to yours.  I am certain that today's manufacturers are pushing the envelope of mass-produced N-scale models because EXCELLENCE SELLS, and N-scalers are demanding excellence from manufacturers...excellence in detailing, excellence in reliability, excellent running qualities, excellent road-specific features and a price that isn't overwhelming to the vast majority of interested buyers.

With the advent of more robust 3D printing resins/materials and the price continually plummeting on 3D printers that can produce exponentially better details than injection molding ever can at a much reduced price and time-line, I am sure that we will see the manufacture of unbelievably detailed N-scale trains produced right here in the USA within five years.  EXCELLENCE SELLS...and the 3D revolution in our hobby is just barely beginning...and is being greatly assisted by modelers who are not completely complacent with present-day models, and who want more.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Point353]

So, my viewpoint is diametrically opposed to yours.  I am certain that today's manufacturers are pushing the envelope of mass-produced N-scale models because EXCELLENCE SELLS, and N-scalers are demanding excellence from manufacturers...excellence in detailing, excellence in reliability, excellent running qualities, excellent road-specific features and a price that isn't overwhelming to the vast majority of interested buyers.

If nobody had bought those early models because they were too toy-like, N scale wouldn't exist today and there wouldn't be an envelope for the manufacturers to keep pushing.

[randgust]

This one pretty well reflects my philosophy.

Originally - Trix U28C.  Repainted with Pactra custom mix paint, handpainted about 1975.   That version lasted until the early 80's, then a second shell got acquired, painted in Scalecoat blue with Microscale decals, brass wire handrails, details, U28CG details added over the radiator, weathered.   Put over the original Trix mechanism, old shell in the junk drawer and it is still there.  That ran for quite a while!

Then got a Kato C30-7 and discovered that with a little work, the upgraded Trix shell would fit over that chassis.   So the mechanism got traded, and I also upgraded the fuel tank.    This unit has now been running for many years, and the shell goes back....wow...maybe 1980 now?      Last Trix shell left on the layout, and it still works for me.    Under some of those ugly, toylike, 70's shells with milk-glass windows is actually some pretty good diework with a little help.



Or I could have waited for 20 years for somebody to produce a factory-painted, ATSF pinstripe U28CG, with proper details.  Heck, that PHOTO is 15 years ago when I checked the date!

[wm3798]

And, at the risk of creating thread drift that will land us all in Railwire Jail, THIS is why I accept the foundations of evolution!

Someone bothered to make an N "Gauge" locomotive in 1963.
Eventually, someone fooled around with it to make it look better.
Then the manufacturers said "hey look at that" and made a better locomotive.
Now it looked reasonably good, but the drive was wanting.  so the tinkerers made some improvements.

And someone noticed.

And so on, and so on, and so on.    The beauty of it is that no one commenting here is wrong.  Like many, Bob saw the benefit of the scale in terms of layout building, and had the resources available to get what he felt were satisfactory models to run on it.  I can check the first box, but the second one evaded me for decades, so I did the best I could with what I had to work with.

But I built an actual museum layout long about 1987... Rail Craft c55, tortoise switch machines... etc.  So I'm right there with you.  I believe the rest of my resume' speaks for itself.

I'm enjoying revisiting these old "friends" though, now, having learned from a lifetime of mistakes and triumphs that help me diagnose troublesome drives and scratch my tinkering itch with a modicum of success.  I went ahead an put a whole new drive under the Metroliner that I had fussed over for months, thanks to @randgust  and the good folks at Tomytec.  Is it pure retro?  No.  But is it fun to watch whizzing by on the layout? (and doing so more quietly and reliably?)  Absolutely.

Unlike brewing, there is no "purity law".  In fact, under the overarching protection of Rule #1, finding joy in the trains should be the one sinew that connects us all.  I've got mine, have you got yours?

Lee

[nkalanaga]

Robert:  Where did you find a "made-in-The-Soviet-Union" N scale model?  I wouldn't mind having one of those, just as a curiosity.

[peteski]

Robert:  Where did you find a "made-in-The-Soviet-Union" N scale model?  I wouldn't mind having one of those, just as a curiosity.

I wonder if Bob's "Soviet N scale" was actually East German (another Soviet Bloc country) PIKO brand.   Those were very crude models with die-cast white metal wheels which had huge flanges.  But they were all that was available to modelers living behind the Iron Curtain (like me), and it was still the infancy of N scale.

And like others here, I have succumbed to nostalgia, and I have reacquired some of those pieces. At least they didn't cost me much. 







For few more photos go to my vintage PIKO gallery

[wm3798]

I see that Rapido couplers were an early effort at Detente!

Lee

[MK]

Those turnout boxes looked very similar to the vintage Atlas ones!

[robert3985]

Robert:  Where did you find a "made-in-The-Soviet-Union" N scale model?  I wouldn't mind having one of those, just as a curiosity.

I didn't find them.  Fellow Ntrakers found them...models built in East Germany (remember East Germany??) and Yugoslavia (Remember Yugoslavia?)...two of several Soviet-Bloc countries...all of which comprised the "Soviet Union".  If memory serves me, most of the time they were having problems with them, especially with trackwork that complied to NMRA recommended practices (Atlas C80), and throttle response was full-off/full-on.

Yup.  @peteski  Peter has it right.  Piko equipment wasn't that uncommon in our Ntrak club, as well as models offered by MRC, AHM, Life-Like, Model Power, etc., included many U.S. prototypes which were poorly made by Mehano out of Yugoslavia starting in 1968 with Atlas's RSC-2.  I'll quote Spookshow...which about says it all for Yugoslavian produced N-scale engines:
 
"Unlike the other really bad Mehano locomotives imported by Atlas in the late 1960s (IE, Mehano's GP40 and SD45 models), this one had a blessedly short lifespan. To their credit, Atlas dropped the entire evil triumverate circa the mid 1970s. But for reasons beyond my ken, the GP40 and SD45 models were ultimately picked up by PMI (and subsequently Model Power) and marketed for way longer than they deserved. Happily, this RSC-2 was relegated to the dustbin of bad locomotive history fairly early on its in wretched existance."

"This is a tremendously awful locomotive. Yes, it's able to navigate a circle of track (usually without tipping over or stalling out). But let's face it, it's a joke otherwise. Traction tires eat up a quarter of the pick-up potential (making for iffy contact with the rails and a very wobbly ride). The cheap 5-pole motor and plastic moving parts turn into a shaking, buzzing monster when current is applied. The paint is terrible, the handrails are huge and brittle, the couplers are truck-mounted Rapidos, the pilots are wide open, electrical current is ferried around via wires and the non-directional headlight lights up the entire nose from within. In a word - yuck."

"Grade: F"

I remember well "The Wall" between East and West Germany when I was living in West Germany in the early 70's, and Dec 26, 1991 doesn't seem that long ago when the Soviet Union dissolved itself.  I'm sure there are some fellow TRW members who were too young to remember that momentous day, but for us Baby Boomers, it was a HUGE event.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[Doug G.]

The drive in some of those Pikos was similar to the drive in the Arnold 200 series locos.

Doug

[nickelplate759]

Neither East Germany nor Yugoslavia were ever part of the Soviet Union.
East Germany was in the "Soviet Bloc", but Yugoslavia, although closely allied, was not.

Which is not to say that the Soviet Union didn't exert a great deal of influence over all of them.