Author Topic: C&O 0-10-0 switcher  (Read 1799 times)

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Kentuckian

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C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« on: November 06, 2019, 01:22:36 PM »
+1
This class is kind of an oddball type. The C&O only had around 15 on the roster, whereas they had around a couple of hundred 0-8-0’s (thanks Life-Like). Big and ugly, they were also powerful. This is what I am aiming for:





I recently picked up a Minitrix 2-10-0 for cheap at a show. This project was always in the back of my mind so I thought I would give it a shot.




I was always planning on replacing the motor, after I had ground down the flanges. The flanges are pizza cutters. Last night when I was running the locomotive and grinding down the wheels, the motor seized and released the magic smoke. I was done grinding on one side but not the other. So now I have to replace the motor sooner than I wanted.





But which motor? I am aware of at least three options:

1. Use a Kato, as shown on @spookshow. The motor is so tight a slot has to be cut in the existing back head to slide the motor in from the side. The worm would have to be moved from the old motor to this one. I have several of these motors on hand, so the cost is only time.

2. Use a Sagami 14x20 that I have on hand. Again, this would now cost only time. A small amount of material would have to be taken off the frame, so the time and trouble is about the same as option 1.

3. Use a Bachmann K4 cordless motor as recommended by someone on the forum. I found the post last night but of course forgot to bookmark it and now I can’t find it. He reverse mounted the motor in the boiler area which opened up the cab for details. This option would probably affect how much weight could be added. But the motor comes from Bachmann with the right size worm already installed.

I am interested in constructive recommendations, and other options that I am not aware of. Thanks.
Modeling the C&O in Kentucky.

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nickelplate759

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2019, 02:55:14 PM »
0
First off - Cool!

Second - before you put in your good motor, I'd jury-rig a cheap old motor and finish griding the flanges, then put in the real production motor.

Third - this is a switcher.  A Kato motor will let it go about 300 SMPH.   I'd pick the slowest motor I could fit and that didn't cost much.

Fourth-  Any chance you can squeeze in a flywheel?
George

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I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

randgust

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2019, 03:38:31 PM »
0
If you feel 'lucky and good' you can file those flanges down with an abrasive disk in a motor tool, and that has the added advantage of spinning the drive train with the motor off.   You can use a finger/thumb as a brake to control speed and gently hit the disk on the side you didn't get yet.   That way you're not beating up the new motor.

I wouldn't get hung up about low speed, but I would get hung up about low-end torque and low speed performance.   A lot depends on your throttle.  I've always liked the Kato five-poles as they have good low-end torque; I've repowered several other locomotives with them.  The one five pole that they used to have on the 11-103/4 chassis was really small, you'd get the chassis just for that motor.   It was smaller than a regular Kato motor but still an open frame.

I've also loved Sagamis - repowered five locomotives with those.   Relatively extinct though.

As much as I'd love to, I'm still suspect over the ability of any Bachmann coreless motor to really hold up.   

Now, I'm a gearhead fan for sure.   Max M. had a vendor make a run of Mashimas; not bad but not terrific.    I've done several Faulhaber installs and if you can figure out how to get in a gearhead, wonderful, but it's tough.   I've also done about a dozen installs of the little Kato 11-105 motor with a Gizmoszone 5.14:1 gearhead mounted on it, works great, but Gizmoszone disappeared completely off the planet and if there's another dealer anywhere for those Marsten motor/gearhead combos coming out of Hong Kong, I can't find it.    You really don't want much of a reduction, 5:1 was really good when you can get it.   Most gearhead combos are single-shaft, but that still works fine for steam.    Another source is robotshop.ca; they have a lot of gearhead combos.    Because of the absurd torque you get at the shaft, using a 3.5 v motor with a dropping resistor isn't as bad as you think if you have to do it that way.

You have to think differently with these gearhead motors.   They are really dirt cheap, better made than you think, but it's still a wild guess on some issues.   Here's a typical example:     https://www.robotshop.com/en/gravity-dc-micro-metal-gear-motor-driver-301.html
Now, 30:1 sounds good, that 'looks like' a typical Kato 11-105 case, so it 'should be' pretty small.... want a $10 bet it might work?   And there's probably another 10-15 motor combinations out there.   I always like Gizmoszone because they had a dimension drawing for everything as well as electrical and torque specs.  Oh well.... place your bets.

These guys seem to be dominating the tiny gearhead market - possilbly why Gizmoszone bailed.... there's a big assortment and you'll find the product on other web sources:  https://www.pololu.com/category/51/pololu-metal-gearmotors
Huh, this may just be the winner.   I didn't even know they made this until I started digging for you: 
https://www.pololu.com/product/3047


But you've got several good approaches there, none of those alternatives are really bad.     And one thing I'd really harp on more than the flywheel is getting 8x8 pickup in the tender and hotwiring (no drawbar phosphor wires, thank you!) direct to the locomotive end.    I use a lot of Kato caboose trucks and frames and adapt those.    Given a choice between a flywheel and 8x8, take the pickup alternative. I've done it both ways, pickup wins. 

« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 03:59:12 PM by randgust »

daniel_leavitt2000

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2019, 04:13:26 PM »
0
This looks like a good candidate for the cheap Maxon motors on eBay. Slow, huge torque and about the right size. The Bachmann coreless is nice and slow, but I'm not sure how well they hold up over time and how much torque they produce.
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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2019, 04:21:59 PM »
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This looks like a good candidate for the cheap Maxon motors on eBay. Slow, huge torque and about the right size. The Bachmann coreless is nice and slow, but I'm not sure how well they hold up over time and how much torque they produce.

Well, if you make it easily swappable and they're readily available, just get a replacement or two.

Point353

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2019, 05:18:59 PM »
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Would the coreless motor used in the Kato UP FEF-3 loco be an option?


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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2019, 07:15:31 PM »
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What are you using for a boiler shell? Obvi the K4 Trix thing is out...  Will an old Atlas Riv 080 boiler work?

I had a 2-10-0 A million years ago.  I've been looking for an excuse to buy another one...

Watching with interest...

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Kentuckian

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2019, 08:20:04 PM »
0
What are you using for a boiler shell? Obvi the K4 Trix thing is out...  Will an old Atlas Riv 080 boiler work?


That’s what I’m thinking. Years ago I had enough of those old Atlas 0-8-0’s to pave my driveway. Over the years they disappeared and I had to buy a couple of shells, Con-cor to the rescue. https://www.con-cor.com/?s=0-8-0&post_type=product&type_aws=true
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mmagliaro

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2019, 09:09:51 PM »
0
I found the post using the Bachmann coreless motor, reverse-mounted in the frame:

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=37317.0

John LeMerise is the one who showed the Bachmann motor possibility. 

I admit that having a motor with a ready-mounted worm on it is a tempting drop-in solution.
Curiously, in that same thread, I suggested the possibilities of a Faulhaber 1016 or the Maxon 1017.

Here's my suggestion, get some measurements on what you can really fit in there.  If you can put a 12mm or 13mm diameter motor,
the Maxon 13 x 20 would be a spectacular solution.  That thing is a monster for power and has a nice, sturdy 1.5mm output shaft on it.  I used to get them from Eldon (motorman), but now that he is no more, we will have to hunt around to get one
on the surplus market.   I used them in lots of Trix K4's, so I bet it would fit in the Decapod.

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2019, 11:22:37 PM »
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The Rivarossi USRA light shell will fit the TRIX chassis.  The steam pipes and cylinders even line up properly.  That might be a starting point.  I never tried the RR USRA heavies, but, I would not doubt that they  might fit, as well.

In fact, you could make a USRA  light decapod out of this thing.  I can  not remember for sure, but I seem to recall that I got the idea from Richie Dost.

 I had one, but sold it on FeePay.

mmagliaro

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2019, 01:19:02 PM »
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Okay, a little digging..

Maxon 139885
Search that on eBay.  There are a multitude of sellers offering this motor for about $20.  These are 13mm diameter.  They have a gearhead attached, which you will have to unscrew, and then you'll have a pinion gear attached to the motor shaft, which you will need to remove, but you can do that with a gear puller (or a Dremel with a cut-off disk slicing off the gear if you are a "ruffian"  Ha ha...)

You can't look that number up on the Maxon site.  It's one of their proprietary case numbers that they put on motors that are sold in bulk to a commercial customer.  But I am pretty sure it's the 20mm long one, judging from the photos and the fact that the total motor length is listed as anywhere from 45 to 50mm by all the eBay sellers, and the motor is clearly less than half the total length.

So... like I said earlier, the 13mm x 20mm long Maxon is a MONSTER for power... anywhere from 1.2W to 1.5W continuous power, and it can be fitted into a Trix K4 with some minor Dremel grinding.  So I'd see if you've got the room for it in your Decapod.  Then it will be a matter of sleeving the shaft and fitting the worm - not too awful a job.


Jim Starbuck

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2019, 02:18:54 PM »
+1
I haven’t repowered any steam so have no experience there but I am a huge fan of the 7mm coreless motors Bachmann uses. I have powerd several switchers and currently fitting one into a Briggs Models SDL39.
The motor from Bachmann with a worm and small flywheel is just under $20 plus shipping.
One element that hasn’t been touched on here is worm diameter. My experience is the smaller diameter worm gives a great deal of gear advantage since the torque pulling on the driven gear is closer to the shaft centerline. In my mind that creates a lower gear ratio but I have no math to back it up.
The little motor makes ample torque to break traction of the wheels on my engines but may be different in a heavier steamer. The entire weight of the steamer is distributed over ten wheels which could possibly give you less weight per wheel than even say a lighter 4 axle switcher. The best vehicle for traction in my scrambled brain would be a unicycle where 100% of the weight is on one wheel.
I don’t know if you had mentioned using a decoder in the steamer but the smaller motor creates room for electronics and possibly more weight if needed.
The coreless Bachmann motors play extremely well with ESU decoders. Slow speed is excellent.
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narrowminded

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2019, 03:36:58 PM »
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The worm diameter has no effect on the gear ratio.  That is entirely based on the mod or pitch and then number of teeth on the mated worm gear.  One revolution at the worm advances one tooth on the worm gear.  Think about it.  Unless it's a double start worm which exists but isn't likely to be found in a model train.

What the worm diameter DOES effect is the worm gear tooth mesh angle or if it's a true enveloping worm gear the radius will follow with the worm diameter.
Mark G.

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2019, 05:18:50 PM »
0
Okay, a little digging..

Maxon 139885
Search that on eBay.  There are a multitude of sellers offering this motor for about $20.  These are 13mm diameter.  They have a gearhead attached, which you will have to unscrew, and then you'll have a pinion gear attached to the motor shaft, which you will need to remove, but you can do that with a gear puller (or a Dremel with a cut-off disk slicing off the gear if you are a "ruffian"  Ha ha...)

You can't look that number up on the Maxon site.  It's one of their proprietary case numbers that they put on motors that are sold in bulk to a commercial customer.  But I am pretty sure it's the 20mm long one, judging from the photos and the fact that the total motor length is listed as anywhere from 45 to 50mm by all the eBay sellers, and the motor is clearly less than half the total length.


I bought several of them in the past.  The motor is 13mm X 21mm.
But I was unable to unscrew the gearhead from the motor (and I tried really hard. If you have some trick method to do this, I'm all ears.  Whatever thy used to lock the thread (looks like epoxy, not tread locker) :)
I ended up chucking the motor in my lathe, and using a cutoff tool to separate the gearhead.

I also encountered 2 different ways the pinion gear is mounted on the motor shaft.  One way is press-fit so it can be removed with a gear puller (but it is on quite tight). The other way is looser fit on the shaft but the end of the shaft is welded to the spur gear.  That one has to be drilled or ground out. That one was a pain to deal with.
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DKS

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Re: C&O 0-10-0 switcher
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2019, 05:31:33 PM »
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I had a 2-10-0 A million years ago.  I've been looking for an excuse to buy another one...

I know where you can get one... or a bunch...
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