Out of the Box Models?

[sirenwerks]

This was posted on their Facebook page the other day,

"Due to unforeseen personal obligations, I am suspending all new orders from Out of the Box, effective Immediately.

We will continue to work on printing and shipping the outstanding orders, and developing all outstanding commissioned models that have yet to be delivered.

Thank you for your understanding."

This is a pet peeve of mine. I feel for his life being challenging at the moment, I really do. Mine's like a constant roller coaster too. But when you start a business, if you want people to take it seriously and for it to succeed, there has to be a level of commitment and a plan for dealing with life's challenges. Maybe that's just the Emergency Manager in me, constantly involved in continuity of operations planning, but the fact that so many small manufacturers go belly up - and so many have failed with this sort of message as the death knoll - because of the normal facts of business or life makes it hard for me to consider any start-up anything more than a ship in the night at this point. I hear of a new manufacturer and I just go 'yea, yea, yea, heard that one before."

[Mike Madonna]

Soooo...
It sounds like, if it was in the "pipeline" (ie. SP B-50-15/16 Boxcars), that it should be produced.

[randgust]

I do think it's a lot harder to actually make any actual money doing RP designing and printing work than most people think.

I like Shapeways, its a nice feature, but it's a fairly horrible way to make any actual money as a designer unless you've invented something to print by the hundreds of thousands.   And I suspect, based on my son's printer, that while the printing cost based on spool pricing isn't too awful, the throughput time is. 

And there's still some quality issues here that haven't resolved themselves.   

There's some nice technology that's wormed it's way into model railroading for electronics, resin casting, etching, RP printing, etc. and it takes time to really make a functional small business out of any of these.   The only thing I stuck my fingers into that came back as a truly bad idea for a home production shop was photoetching.    I'm very excited about RP printing though on a home device, it's evolving rapidly.   

[JMaurer1]

Some great advice I was given many years ago: The best way to ruin a hobby is to try and make it a business.

I've been tempted more than a few times to start 'producing' things, but always came back to this one piece of advice. Do it because it's something that you wanted and maybe offer it to others on a one time basis. Even better: do what you enjoy (in this case, RP printing) and offer the files to others. While I would never try to take on designing an entire car or engine shell, I would think about modifying one and (once finished) passing the file on to others (like that SP 40' south city caboose).

[sirenwerks]

I do think it's a lot harder to actually make any actual money doing RP designing and printing work than most people think.

I like Shapeways, its a nice feature, but it's a fairly horrible way to make any actual money as a designer unless you've invented something to print by the hundreds of thousands.   And I suspect, based on my son's printer, that while the printing cost based on spool pricing isn't too awful, the throughput time is. 

And there's still some quality issues here that haven't resolved themselves.   

There's some nice technology that's wormed it's way into model railroading for electronics, resin casting, etching, RP printing, etc. and it takes time to really make a functional small business out of any of these.   The only thing I stuck my fingers into that came back as a truly bad idea for a home production shop was photoetching.    I'm very excited about RP printing though on a home device, it's evolving rapidly.

For designers, Shapeways is much more than the printing. It's a marketing platform, and distribution, customer service, accounts receivable systems. And after Shapeways last website redesign, the marketing platform part of it, for designers, was seriously diminished. It's a great business model, but the quality issues are really messing things up, and Shapeways wants to be at the forefront of attention, while designers would prefer a less obtrusive web presence by Shapeways. In addition, it would provide more value to designers if it did more than 3D printing, such as etching and laser cutting, and combined all of these into single products.

[CRL]

Some great advice I was given many years ago: The best way to ruin a hobby is to try and make it a business.

I've been tempted more than a few times to start 'producing' things, but always came back to this one piece of advice. Do it because it's something that you wanted and maybe offer it to others on a one time basis. Even better: do what you enjoy (in this case, RP printing) and offer the files to others. While I would never try to take on designing an entire car or engine shell, I would think about modifying one and (once finished) passing the file on to others (like that SP 40' south city caboose).

^^^^^This.

Detail parts are a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche hobby.

[randgust]

I think I was really lucky.    I had my "Yoda" in John Coots of N Scale of Nevada / Scale structures Ltd.   

I got to visit him at his wonderful layout/shop/home, and John Claudino of Aztec, and we got down to seriously discussing the business side of doing N scale niche market work.  He was very open about what worked, what hadn't, and went over my plan.   Game changer for sure, both telling what what to do and what not to do.  I'd already worked in a retail hobby shop and done purchasing and sales while I was in college, so I knew that part.   But I credit John for keeping me realistic about what to expect, and not expect, from doing my kits.    I've tried to pay it forward a bit, he was certainly the difference between getting in way over my head and being satisfied with what was probably a smaller market than what most people imagine it was.

John had two of the most memorable questions to me that should be asked of anyone even thinking of trying to do the hobby for business:

Are you doing this to make money or for ego to see your name in advertising in Model Railroader?

Are you making money now?  Because if you are, you're already ahead of 50% of everybody in this business and don't forget it.   

He also showed me his 'wall of shame' storage of probably a couple hundred etched brass Ntrak signal bridges for wide-spaced 3-track.    "I'll be long dead before these are ever sold".    And they are still out there on Ebay, they were gorgeous, but they wouldn't sell to such a tiny market.

[Chris333]

Selling on Shapeways for myself is just stuff I made for me and offered it for sale to others. Most on my stuff has no mark up and the few that do are only like 3-4 dollars. Nowadays there is very little that Shapeways can print better than I can print myself.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

Well, I guess I should give up on that $150 down payment on the project.

This kind of thing really pisses me off. If you can't do the job, communicate and refund.

I hope Briggs is willing to take on custom projects.

[BCOL 747]

I hope Briggs is willing to take on custom projects.

Sent you an email Daniel.

Kind regards,

Chris
Briggs Models

[Scott Lupia]

Well, I guess I should give up on that $150 down payment on the project.

This kind of thing really pisses me off. If you can't do the job, communicate and refund.

This is why each time a new fly-by-night  "company" comes along with a catchy name they get questioned pretty heavily on the Railwire.  This is unfortunately the result that I have seen time and time again.  Hopefully, you will get your deposit back through some sort of disputing process with your payment method.  Out of the Box Models was given a lot of benefit of the doubt between crap photos and lack of a stable business model.  His reputation will be destroyed by this.

When I started KV Models LLC I really had to sit down with all the numbers and make sure I could make this thing work.  Like anyone else here that has done it knows, there is so much that goes into a business.  It is far more than a catchy name, a few cryptic posts in a modeling forum and a "pay here" button.  He has hurt the next guy that wants to come along and do something new for the hobby as well as modelers looking to take a chance on something new and exciting.

Scott Lupia

[Lemosteam]

This is why I am very careful with respect to promises made and why i design things I want and need for my own modeling purposes.  I might be slow to deliver sometimes, but I will always try to keep folks informed (and yes I still owe some projects, I know) and WILL make good on my promises.  I do not take funds in advance for design work, either. 

I was raised that you do not get compensated until services have been rendered and that you never forget a debt.

I have similar circumstances that get in the way sometimes too.

[johnb]

Soooo...
It sounds like, if it was in the "pipeline" (ie. SP B-50-15/16 Boxcars), that it should be produced.

I was waiting for this car, I can use quite a few

[learmoia]

I heard a story on the radio the other day about a wooden bat mfg who started because he wanted a 28" wood bat for his kid for little league and all he could could find was 29"+.. so he made one, then a team mate wanted one.. so he made another one, and another.. and another.. then other teams, them legit baseball players then major league players..
And he would get a major league player orders for 6 bats but only ship 5 because he couldn't get a 6th bat he was happy with...
Then the reputation for quality spread and he grew to buying amish wood mills to get a steady supply of quality wood...

Those types of companies in the model railroad industry (ESM, BLMA, and a few of the Shapeways producers have sucseeded with that growth model.)

Its possible.. but you need to start with something you want for yourself so you have the drive to finish it.. (and if you can recoup some cost on the side.. so be it.)..

~Ian

[daniel_leavitt2000]

And that was my fault. When Out of the Box purchased CESM, I figured they were legit.

I'm opening a dispute in Paypal... I hope it works.