Author Topic: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts  (Read 5395 times)

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biker_ray_pa

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Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« on: April 03, 2019, 02:03:32 PM »
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I'm building a small layout, about 3x5, and I'm using Peco track. I'm just not sure which turnouts I should be looking at, Electrofrog or Unifrog. Here's my situation: I want to be able to switch the layout from DC to DCC depending on what I'm running. I don't mean at the same time - I mean one or the other, but switch the systems out when needed. That's easy enough to do. I have several very small locomotives, so Insulfrogs are out - they stall on them every time. I also have several rather old locomotives, Minitrix and Graham Farish, that have huge pizza-cutter wheels, which is why I've decided to go with Peco track. Again, easy enough. Where I'm stumbling is figuring out whether the Electrofrog or Insulfrog turnouts would be preferable. On the face of it, I'd think the Unifrog would be a better choice, but I've read that there are sometimes shorting problems near the frog.

I've bought a couple of each to do some testing, but I'd really appreciate any real-world advice from those with experience using one or the other, or both. Thanks!


Ray
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MVW

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2019, 09:59:25 AM »
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Interesting. I hadn't heard of the Unifrog before. Apparently it will eventually replace both the Electrofrog and Insulfrog.

https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Unifrog

I've been using the Electrofrogs on my DCC layout. I currently have 26 in service, four waiting to go down, and another half-dozen in the mail. Haven't had a problem with any of 'em in the 4.5 years since I started this layout. Other than using insulated rail joiners beyond the frog, I make no modifications. And I don't use juicers.

Since I haven't seen or used the Unifrog, I can't recommend one over the other. But I can say the Electrofrog has been damn reliable. Will be interested in hearing about your experiences with the Unis.

Jim


Rossford Yard

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2019, 10:57:24 AM »
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I have used both, sometimes adjacent to each other. Not sure it makes a difference if you wire them correctly, i.e., put insulated joiners past the frog on both legs.  I always ran loco pairs, so the insulfrog was better for me, but understand the Electro or wired Unifrog for single locos.

The link didn't specific whether the N scale versions would be their code 55 or 80?  I presume 55, and it doesn't matter in their system anyway.  Of course, would buy Peco all day long IF they came out with a US proto look in true C55.

wazzou

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2019, 12:30:37 PM »
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Interesting. I hadn't heard of the Unifrog before. Apparently it will eventually replace both the Electrofrog and Insulfrog.

https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Unifrog

Jim


I had never heard of them either and was certain it must have been a typo.
It would seem to be the perfect opportunity to redesign the turnouts entirely for US prototype tie spacing but it's probably important to remember that PECO probably sells more turnouts in Europe than the US.
Bryan

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peteski

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2019, 01:21:28 PM »
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I had never heard of them either and was certain it must have been a typo.
It would seem to be the perfect opportunity to redesign the turnouts entirely for US prototype tie spacing but it's probably important to remember that PECO probably sells more turnouts in Europe than the US.

Looking at the unifurog design, I'm not a fan.  First, the frog will still be dead electrically, and visually, the metal rails of the frog will be interrupted by the plastic insulators.  That is probably its biggest disadvantage.

There is nothing really inherently bad or scary about using electrofrogs with DCC - the worries and phobias are unfounded.  Just remember to use well documented "safe" installation and wiring practice.   I much prefer seeing the shiny continuous metal rail a the frog area, plus the added bonus of having electrical continuity through the entire turnout makes electrofrog worth using.
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Rossford Yard

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2019, 01:29:47 PM »
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Not to mention that modern slim profile N scale wheels take a noticeable dip in the old plastic frogs of the Insulfrogs. :)

It would seem that the Unifrog is built basically the same ways as Atlas C55, but with the wire attached and cut if not wanted, whereas you have to solder a wire to the little ring sticking out of the Atlas C55 turnouts.

mark dance

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2019, 02:48:32 PM »
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Interesting...

Isn't the Unifrog basically a switch with the common - and erroneously named - "DCC Friendly" mod applied at the factory?

md (proud and happy owner of more than 225 reliably working Electrofrogs...:) )
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CRL

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2019, 02:58:28 PM »
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I’ve used electrofrogs exclusively in the past without any problems. The unifrog seems to be an attempt to combine the insulfrog and electrofrog into one product instead of two.

Not convinced it’s needed, but they’ll surely eliminate the other two options when it’s fully rolled out.

OldEastRR

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2019, 10:21:42 PM »
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Looks like anybody can turn an Electrofrog model into a Unifrog one with careful use of a dremel and a few bits of plastic. Interesting idea.


peteski

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 12:53:42 AM »
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If I understand the Unifrog construction correctly, it is electrically identical to the Atlas c55 turnouts. 
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wazzou

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 01:14:53 AM »
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Yeah, but imagine if it were using US prototype tie spacing.
Bryan

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robert3985

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2019, 03:50:41 AM »
+1
I'm not a user of any RTR turnouts except I occasionally use ME C55 #6's, but I have built hundreds of C55 "DCC friendly" turnouts on my bench, and from an electrical standpoint, Peco's "Unifrog" design isn't anything different than what I've been building for the last 30 years, which is a turnout with (1) an electrically isolated frog (including the frog wing rails) and (2) closure rails and point rails which are the same polarity as the adjacent stock rails.

What's the difference between Peco Streamline Code 55 N Scale Electrofrog & Unifrog turnouts??

Electrofrog Turnouts:

Photo (1) - Peco Streamline Code 55 N Scale Electrofrog Large Turnout:


With Peco Electrofrog turnouts, all the rails between the straight and diverging stock rails are electrically isolated if the point rail toes aren't touching either stock rail.  When the switch is aligned so that one point rail toe touches its adjacent stock rail, the entire central portion of the turnout becomes the same polarity as the stock rail the point toe is touching.  This includes (a & b) both point rails (c & d) both diverging rails (e & f) both frog wing rails (g) the frog (h & i) both through rails.  That's a total of 9 separate turnout and switch components whose polarity changes each time the switch's point rails are aligned.

The advantages are that the frog's polarity is very simply determined by how the switch is aligned, making it a "live" frog so even very short and small locomotives will run through it without any electrical interruption. This also eliminates having to use any integral switch motor relays, or a Frog Juicer, or any electrical toggle or slide switches to have a "live" frog since as long as the switch is aligned, and one of the point rail toes is touching it's adjacent stock rail, the frog is the same polarity, along with everything else between the two stock rails.

The disadvantages outweigh the advantages. The potential electrical problems with the Electrofrog design come from the front of the turnout where the point rails are located in the turnout's switch.  If a metal wheel traveling on the stock rail (on the open switch point rail side of the switch) touches both the adjacent stock rail AND the open switch's point rail at the same time an electrical short will occur, since the entire switch assembly's polarity is determined by the closed point rail toe which is touching its adjacent closure rail.  Peco minimizes this potential by designing the point toe gap on the open side of the switch to be extra large. For DC operation, since the voltages rarely run more than 12 VDC (at full-open throttle!) if an engine shorts at the switch's point rails, it may stop, or it may just jerk momentarily then continue on.  However, in DCC since the constant voltage in the rails is several volts higher than 12 volts in N-scale and is usually 5 to 8 amps, when an engine shorts, it will shut down the entire power district, and if power block protection doesn't actually turn off the power, if left unnoticed the stalled engine's metal wheel plastic supporting structure can melt...WILL melt..maybe along with several plastic ties on the turnout.

Because of this quite drastic potential of the Peco Electrofrog turnouts when using them with DCC, there are quite a few videos demonstrating how, and articles telling how to make them "DCC Friendly" because as they come, they are definitely "DCC Unfrlendly" even if most users have never had problems with them running DCC.  The potential is still there.

Also, since the closure rail toes are what carries the voltage to everything in the middle of the turnout, electrical continuity is dependent on that small contact being clean and unobstructed.  I never trust nickel silver rails for carrying either electricity or DCC signals without a feeder, so this IMHO is a big disadvantage.

Unifrog Turnouts:

Photo (2) - Peco Streamline Code 55 N Scale Unifrog Medium Turnout:


The new Peco "Unifrog" turnout is basically the same electrically as what I have been building on the bench for 30 years, and what C55 Atlas and C55 Micro Engineering have been doing the last couple of decades...that is, making isolated frog, "DCC Friendly" turnouts.

As of today (4/4/2019) the Unifrog C55 N Scale turnout is only available with Peco's "medium" turnout.  Small and large Peco Streamline Code 55 N scale turnouts are still Electrofrogs, at least as far as the Peco website is concerned. Incidentally, the photo at the Peco website illustrating the new Unifrog Medium turnouts is wrong, having only the gap on the back of the frog, and no gap at the front of the frog.

The huge difference between the Electrofrog and the Unifrog turnouts is that with the Unifrog turnout, there are only two components on the turnout that can be made to change polarity, the (a) frog and the (b) frog wing rails.  The point rails and the closure rails all stay the same polarity as their adjacent stock rails...constantly, and they are connected using wire feeders, or "droppers" as the British call them.  The through rails (or "frog rails" as they're sometimes called) are also fed with wire feeders to make them constantly the correct polarity.  This means that all of the rails are constantly the correct polarity and are live, except the frog and the frog wing rails, which means if your engine's extra wide, thick-flanged wheels brush the open point rail toe as they goes by, it won't short, since both the point rails and the closure rails are the same polarity as the adjacent stock rail. 

Frankly, I don't see hardly any possibility of a short at the frog either, so I would say that rumors about that are spurious unless somebody has wired their Unifrog turnout's frog the wrong way. The only valid problems I found online were with HO scale Peco Insulfrogs...with metal wheels that are wide which short on the back of the frog...but the N-scale Insulfrogs frog is differently constructed and doesn't have that problem.  On the N-scale code 55 Unifrog turnout, if you've got REALLY thick flanges or your wheelsets are very out of gauge (narrow) you just might have a problem at the front of the frog where the frog wing rails bend and are gapped, and turn into closure rails, but I highly doubt it.  To totally eliminate any problem here, Peco should have gapped the frog another tie space forward as the closure rails are beginning to diverge, rather than at their narrowest position.

Also, on the Unifrog turnouts, you don't need insulated rail joiners on the two through rails (frog rails/point rails whatever) like you do using Electrofrog turnouts, since the through rails will always be the same polarity as the rails they will attach to.

Not having to use two big ol' ugly plastic insulated joiners on the through rails of every turnout more than makes up for the small, black, plastic-filled gaps on the Unifrog turnouts IMO.

On the medium sized Unifrog turnouts, the frog is short enough that dead frogs may work with your small wheelbased motive power...maybe.  I run B-B trucked Key Imports Alco S3's without any hesitation through my two dead-frog ME #6's at Echo.

However for live frogs, you'll have to power the frogs independently, which will add to the complexity.  I'll let you figure that out.

Conclusion:

In conclusion, unless you're going to find old stock where you are buying your turnouts, you're stuck with Unifrog Medium turnouts, which is a good thing.  Small and large turnouts are going to be Electrofrogs, as is every other turnout (curved, three-way, slip, double-slip) from Peco.

If I were doing it and was going to run DCC, I would definitely find out how to make your Electrofrogs "DCC Friendly" 'cause I've had a couple of Kato F-3's melt their truck sideframes on a friend's module without "DCC Friendly" turnouts no matter if some people think the term is "erroneous".  All I know is that the truck cooking didn't happen until he converted to DCC and left his old, unfriendly turnouts on his module.

The proper way to cut gaps on your turnouts before you install them, is to use a jeweler's saw, with fine toothed blades.  I would highly discourage the use of a Dremel to do this job unless the turnout is already installed.  Learn how to do this by watching this video at the Fast Tracks website here: https://www.handlaidtrack.com/FTV-Turnouts-12  If you don't have a jeweler's saw or blades already, you can get both at the Fast Tracks website here: https://www.handlaidtrack.com/tl-0043  and here: https://www.handlaidtrack.com/36-480

Photo (3) - Gaps cut in my hand-built turnouts on the bench using a jeweler's saw with a fine blade:


I think that about does it. 

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 04:48:18 AM by robert3985 »

CRL

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2019, 08:57:08 PM »
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Basically, if your metal wheel flanges are in gauge, it doesn’t matter how wide the wheel treads are, and you’ll not have any problems with Peco Electrofrogs.

robert3985

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2019, 11:19:44 AM »
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Basically, if your metal wheel flanges are in gauge, it doesn’t matter how wide the wheel treads are, and you’ll not have any problems with Peco Electrofrogs.

Wide wheel treads won't be a problem, but wide flanges could be.

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

CRL

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Re: Looking for advice re: Electrofrog or Unifrog turnouts
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2019, 08:25:04 PM »
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I have yet to encounter any Atlas or Kato locomotives with flanges wide enough to cause problems as long as the wheel flanges are gauged to NMRA standards.