1962 UP Turbine with PA cab on NZ Auction Site

[Nato]

     Yes, There was only one of those,it used pulverized coal, which contributed to the Fly Ash problem and wear on the turbine blades. First numbered 80 is was later numbered 8080. Nate Goodman (Nato).

[nkalanaga]

Thank you.

And, I just noticed a typo in my post.  It was built in the 60s, not the 90s.  By the 90s UP had long since given up on turbines!

Even if this thing had been a success, they couldn't have built more than 2, because the GN only had 2 of the big electrics.

[propmeup1]

It still is a big brute that would look good on my layout with my other turbines.   I still may consider making one.  I would love a Jawn Henry as well even though it was N&W but, I do love their Y6Bs.

[Boilerman]

The one I was referring to was driven by a steam turbine not a combustion turbine.

[Boilerman]

Sorry, I had the wrong railroad.

Here is part of the article.

A few years back the Norfolk & Western tried out a coal burning steam-electric which had some novel features but they were offset by the following bugs:

1. Water tube boiler of too low steam pressure.

2.  Steam turbine to power the D.C. generator furnishing power to to the traction motors, a wasteful combination.

3. Insufficient condenser facilities to condense the exhaust steam into water with vacuum on the exhaust line.

4. Too many drive wheels con-contrated under the frame which was bad for the track, roadbed and curves.

5. Was self contained and not adaptable to multiple unit use.

These are just a few of the many reasons why the 'Big Jawn' wasn't able to cut the mustard. The problems were not thought out in detail enough for the locomotive to be correctly designed.

The future success of a coal burning steam-electric locomotive will depend on how well the modern steam principles and practices are observed and used in the designing and construction of such a locomotive.

6. The boiler must be a sub critical (2,000 p.s.i.g.) once thru or flash type such as built by Babcock & Wilcox or by combustion engineering for stationary power plants, using the down-flow membrane fire walls and the up-flow steam generating coils heated by the gasses from the cyclone fire box. Due to limited space this boiler would have to be a package unit containing the economizer, the air pre-heater, and the super-heater. Altho the boiler and accessories would be automatically controlled, it has been my experience that all automatic machinery should be operated by a competent man for regardless how perfect an automatic machine may seem to be, there is one thing it can not do and that is 'think'. That's a fact which can be attested to by all poor mortals who have been sorely vexed at times with the infernal cussedness of inanimate things.

7. While a multi-stage trubine running condensing at full load can be very economical and efficient, the same turbine running on a variable load will be quite wasteful, so the common sense thing to use is a correctly designed reciprocating engine for the variable load and speed peculiar to locomotives. The steam engine which powers the D.C. generator should be a 12 cylinder 'V' type, high speed, single acting, over square uni-flo with balanced plug admission valve, using the 1 to 2 cylinder arrangement for compounding, 4 cylinders for live boiler pressure steam and 8 cylinders for compound steam, all cylinders being same size. If prefered an 18 cylinder 'W' type with the same specifications can be used.

8. The H.O. Baker tri-condenser system should be used together with suitable pumps to get between 25 and 27 inches vacuum on the engine exhaust line to the hot well or tank.

9. The five wheel units should be spaced far enough apart so as not to concentrate the total weight in a small area which is hard on the track, roadbed, and curves.

10. The modern coal burning locomotive, whether it be high pressure steam or turbine, must be designed and built so it can be operated in multiple unit if desired giving the engineer full control of all units. A passage way would have to be included in the construction of the locomotive so the fireman could go from one end to the other in each unit or multi-units for the purpose of inspections. 11. The locomotive under frame should be of the dropped center type with the traction elements at each end of the under frame. The boiler, engine, generator, and accessories would be located in the dropped center portion of the under frame similar to the 'Beyer-Garrett Method'. While I may be wrong, I do believe the Beyer-Garrett Method of under frame suspension does offer a new field to future locomotive designers and I hope they explore the field fully. It seems to me that with just plain common sense application of modern metallurgy and technology a coal burning steam-electric locomotive can be built that will exlipse the diesel locomotive for economy and dependability.

With the new high temperature alloy metals developed in Sweden, Germany and this country, the mechanical problems are of no deep concern but there are other serious obstacles to be overcome before the coal fired locomotive can become the prime motive power in our system of national transportation and they are these.

A. Lack of positive interest by the railroads.

B. The lack of co-operation between the various railroads to pool their resources in common research through the Association of American Railroads for their common good.

C. The influence of educated fools schooled in the internal combustion field, 'the eggheads of the automotive industry'. These are the slide rule boys who prove on paper the thermal efficiency of the diesel. Which reminds me that according to the aeronautical engineering formulas the bumble bee can not fly as his body is too large for his wing spread of poorly designed wings. However, the bumble bee doesn't know anything about this so he goes ahead and flies; anyway.

D. The stone wall resistance by the General Motors Corporation and their subsidiary to any other method of motive power than their own diesels.

E. The infiltration of former General Motors men in high executive railway positions, which can and does, muzzle research in the solid fuel field.

F. The strong opposition by the petroleum industry to any other means than petroleum fuel for motive power.

G. The apathy on part of the federal government in encouraging solid fuel research that would make our nation independent of overseas fuel imports.

These are the seven major obstacles that form the roadblock to solid fuel or coal consumption progress and it will take men who have the brains, the courage, and the integrity, as well as the support of the major railroads to shatter that roadblock. But it can be done and it should be done, 'soon'.

I strongly urge you to go to room 830 of the Transportation Building, Association of American Railroads, and get a copy of the 1962 Salzberg lecture by Major General, I. Sewell Morris. This lecture should be read by every American, whether or not he is a railroad buff.



 

 

 

 

 

[mandealco]

The turbine sold on "Trade Me" yesterday (Sunday our time) for $NZ120.  That would be about $US80.
Cheers
Steve

[nkalanaga]

"7. While a multi-stage trubine running condensing at full load can be very economical and efficient, the same turbine running on a variable load will be quite wasteful, so the common sense thing to use is a correctly designed reciprocating engine for the variable load and speed peculiar to locomotives. The steam engine which powers the D.C. generator should be a 12 cylinder 'V' type, high speed, single acting, over square uni-flo with balanced plug admission valve, using the 1 to 2 cylinder arrangement for compounding, 4 cylinders for live boiler pressure steam and 8 cylinders for compound steam, all cylinders being same size. If prefered an 18 cylinder 'W' type with the same specifications can be used."

Much simpler than your design, but the final result was comparable to an EMD FT - in 1897:
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/heilmann/heilmann1.htm
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/heilmann/heilmann2.htm

Comment on the second page, from Scientific American, on the "excessive weight" of hauling around a steam engine, vs a straight electric:
"It will be argued that the ordinary electric motor is also balanced, and that the extra load of boiler, engines and generator are a distinct handicap to this engine. To this it must be answered that in a locomotive of 1,350 horse power, which it is claimed the new machines will develop, the load of boiler, engines, etc., is almost necessary to give the requisite adhesion when the locomotive is working up to full power, as in starting or on a steep grade.It is evident that in proportion as the weight of the steam boiler, engines and generators become necessary for adhesion, the advantages of their installation in a separate power house disappear."

The MILW found that out with their Little Joes.  Nice motors, but too little weight to start heavy freights.  They had to be ballasted, and even then ended up with diesel helpers for starting tractive effort.

[up1950s]

The turbine sold on "Trade Me" yesterday (Sunday our time) for $NZ120.  That would be about $US80.
Cheers
Steve

That was a giveaway .