Need help understanding Kadee collector market..

[Point353]

Heh. At the NSC convention in Louisville - 2008, with the infamous monster N-Trak layout - a fellow had a booth selling "collectibles". A Chinese red CB&Q boxcar with the "Everywhere West" slogan caught my eye (for some reason ). Queried, "$60" was the response. "Oh. No thanks." I was later informed the vendor was NSC president.

Sometime over a decade ago, I went to the Saturday train show when the annual N Scale Collector circus came to town.
The hotel ballroom was packed with tables filled with "rare" MTL cars - all priced an order of magnitude or more above the original MSRP.
It seemed as though it would be an utter waste of time to offer the sellers anything close to what I considered to be a reasonable price. 
 

[learmoia]

I have been focusing my 'collecting' on MT NYC cars produced pre 1995 and have set a max price less than $15 regardless of 'collectability'.

I only have 2-3 more cars to find, then I'm done..

So whatever happens happens..

My thoughts on recent price spikes isn't that the collector market is coming back.  I think people see.. 'This is a car I dont have..  for much less then current $25+ prices.' And they are willing to more then historical norms because it's still cheaper than buying new stuff.

~Ian

~Ian

[rickb773]

Have the pricing guides (haven't bought one in 15 years) changed to reflect the current lower values?

[Bruce Bird]

I used to be one of 'those N-scalers' who seemed to want one of everything.  And then life and family made me become more narrow and specific on what I bought.  And then having to clean out both my parents and my in-laws houses of their own 'special collectible stuff' forced me to realize that maybe accumulation of too much of anything is not a really good idea.  One of my best friends is a real estate agent and he educated me that upcoming generations really are not interested in creating collections of anything, and that past generations collections are really just piles of crap to millennials and such.  So I've sized down to just specifically what I can run on the layout for operations and have not really bought much of anything in recent years.  I don't plan on passing my stuff down to my kids.  I've had a lot of experience recently on tossing collectible stuff in the dumpster, so I'll have my train stuff dispersed long before my kids have to deal with it.  It's more than just folks are more careful in how they spend their money, they just spend it on things other than stuff.

Bruce

[learmoia]

I just bought a collection off a guy who was cleaning out his dad's house.. initially he listed some locos on FB I was looking for and we started chatting.. We settled on $200 shipped for 93 cars (with and without cases).. I told him he could get more selling through FB, He seemed happy to be rid of it in one shot.

I have been going through my own stuff and thinning down to very specific needs for my modeling..

~Ian

[pmpexpress]

Have the pricing guides (haven't bought one in 15 years) changed to reflect the current lower values?

And you consider the current market values to be eBay pricing, where used products are mixed with new ones and most sellers lack the appropriate knowledge to distinguish authentic items with the proper packaging, documentation, and parts from those that have simply been refurbished with contemporary components?

The price guide values are based upon Brooklyn Locomotive Works, Tex N Rails, N Scale Collector, and N Scale Enthusiast auction results.

Having sold thousands of items throughout the years, the auctioneers of the aforementioned businesses and organizations know an awful lot more about authenticity than do most collectors and even some of the product manufacturers (when it comes to early production models).

How much and on what individuals choose to spend their money on is entirely up to them.

It is ironic that no one choses to criticize the accumulators and hoarders of locomotives and DCC equipment that will likely never be used because there is only so much free-time available to pursue a hobby.

How is it that nobody has elected to mention or disapprove of the multitudes of overpriced purchases of contemporary production Athearn trucks and tractor trailers, BLMA spine car sets, Micro-Trains Line graffiti and eclipse cars, out-of-production Kato locomotives and well-car sets, LBC/Huberts Skybox cars, and Trainworx truck tractors and tractor trailer sets (to name a few of the items that have seen ridiculous post-production price increases in recent years) made by eBay buyers on a regular basis?

While everyone is entitled to express their own opinion, for a select group of forum board posters, it is simply a case of "the pot calling the kettle black".

[nscalbitz]

I just bought a collection off a guy...

I have been going through my own stuff and thinning down to very specific needs for my modeling..

~Ian

And I was very grateful to be a minute part of your eradication process Ian 

Bruce Bird
I've had a lot of experience recently on tossing collectible stuff in the dumpster,...

No, no, no need to do that. Some of us are very generous with token donations for what appears to be obsolete and insignificant N. A lot of the old stuff is very good for Transition Era probabilities. Like those A1G special flats and the like. A couple is enough. Old Atlas Double Door 40's- adequate for Boxcar red repaints. See what I mean?
I won't be buying any CC Passenger sets, but I will spin for the occasional off-road baggage of whatever description for the 'Denver Mail' train from the North.

Thanks both, dave

[learmoia]

I now realize that one of the listings I referenced in my first post is yours...

Here are my thoughts (for what it's worth)

And you consider the current market values to be eBay pricing, where used products are mixed with new ones and most sellers lack the appropriate knowledge to distinguish authentic items with the proper packaging, documentation, and parts from those that have simply been refurbished with contemporary components?

The price guide values are based upon Brooklyn Locomotive Works, Tex N Rails, N Scale Collector, and N Scale Enthusiast auction results.

I think Ebay has become a general beacon of overall value in the market for items.
.. Ebay Auctions vs BLW/NSE/NSC.Ect is like comparing a general second hand auction market vs Sotheby's or Christys..

Serious collectors who are looking for pristine examples of rare items are going to NSE Auctions to see what they can find.
However, those same collectors also know they can find the same examples on Ebay for less when bidding against unsuspecting buyers / sellers.  And the availability of the items on Ebay over time drive down the demand / prices of the NSE auctions and therefore price guides.

($1200 late 1990s down to less than $200 today).. and 1 of 25 becomes 1 of 60+ as they start to pop up on Ebay.

Having sold thousands of items throughout the years, the auctioneers of the aforementioned businesses and organizations know an awful lot more about authenticity than do most collectors and even some of the product manufacturers (when it comes to early production models).

How much and on what individuals elect spend their money on is entirely up to them.

I completely agree!!  Your listing clearly explains the significance of the item and why it is priced the way it is.

It is ironic that no one choses to criticize the accumulators and hoarders of locomotives and DCC equipment that will likely never be used because there is only so much free-time available to pursue a hobby.

How is it that nobody has elected to mention or disapprove of the multitudes of overpriced purchases of contemporary production Athearn trucks and tractor trailers, BLMA spine car sets, Micro-Trains Line graffiti and eclipse cars, out-of-production Kato locomotives and well-car sets, LBC/Huberts Skybox cars, and Trainworx truck tractors and tractor trailer sets (to name a few of the items that have seen ridiculous post-production price increases in recent years) made by eBay buyers on a regular basis?

While everyone is entitled to express their own opinion, for a select group of forum board posters, it is simply a case of "the pot calling the kettle black".

Initially the scope of conversation was to figure out if there was a rare / common example of that specific car (black label vs blue label, ect), and in true Railwire fashion it drifted into overall value of items in general.

No complaints what-so-ever on the current asking / sell prices of new and old items.  If it is something I 'REALLY' wanted, I'd pay up for it, but patience and waiting can save alot of money.

I had been looking for a Minitrix U30CG and U28C in Santa Fe Red and Sliver.
The U28C I got for $25 on BIN after watching several items end in the $30-40 range.
On the U30CG after getting outbid (up to $60-70 bucks) on several auctions for gently used models..
I purchased one in mint condition from a seller in England that had been listed for several months BIN for $75... for $55 on a negotiated best offer.

A seller is free to ask whatever they want for an item, and I'm free to smile and move on. 
And a buyer is free to pay whatever he wants for an item.

I only have 2 complaints on the prices on Ebay.

1: Sellers who have no idea what they have, but price their items at a premium because 'trains are worth lots of money'

2: My inability to find these deep pocket buyers when I'm trying to sell stuff.
-- although I had my best luck with $0.99 auctions..

~Ian

[nscalbitz]

It is ironic that no one choses to criticize the accumulators and hoarders ....

How is it that nobody has elected to mention or disapprove of the multitudes of overpriced purchases of contemporary production ...

While everyone is entitled to express their own opinion, for a select group of forum board posters, it is simply a case of "the pot calling the kettle black".

1- Hardly true. Every third item is a criticism of someone or other. Either price or '.   
2- Hardly true. Every second item is a criticism of someone or other. Either/or 'accuracy/ fidelity'.   
3- Ouch.   
d

[pmpexpress]

Here are my thoughts (for what it's worth)

I think Ebay has become a general beacon of overall value in the market for items.
.. Ebay Auctions vs BLW/NSE/NSC.Ect is like comparing a general second hand auction market vs Sotheby's or Christys..

Serious collectors who are looking for pristine examples of rare items are going to NSE Auctions to see what they can find.
However, those same collectors also know they can find the same examples on Ebay for less when bidding against unsuspecting buyers / sellers.  And the availability of the items on Ebay over time drive down the demand / prices of the NSE auctions and therefore price guides.

($1200 late 1990s down to less than $200 today).. and 1 of 25 becomes 1 of 60+ as they start to pop up on Ebay.

With the exception of "I think Ebay has become a general beacon of overall value in the market for items." everything that you have stated is 100% on the mark.

While I have found this to be extremely rare in the N and HO scale train categories there are an awful lot of individuals who simply will not purchase or sell items on eBay because of the cost and/or the perception that there are too many black or gray market items, too many fake products, too many unscrupulous buyers and sellers, and no effective buyer and seller protections on the site; regardless of what is constantly preached by eBay's management team.

Private sales and those originating on independently hosted, or non-eBay/Amazon venues are never taken into consideration when it comes to discussions of current market values.

If it is something I 'REALLY' wanted, I'd pay up for it, but patience and waiting can save alot of money.

A seller is free to ask whatever they want for an item, and I'm free to smile and move on. 
And a buyer is free to pay whatever he wants for an item.

I only have 2 complaints on the prices on Ebay.

Sellers who have no idea what they have, but price their items at a premium because 'trains are worth lots of money'

~Ian

Bravo!

With regards to discussions about post-release product pricing, these are some of the finest statements that I have heard from any forum board participant (i.e., on any of the boards that I peruse) in a really long time.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, patience is practically nonexistent and is certainly not considered to be a virtue anymore.

[learmoia]

With the exception of "I think Ebay has become a general beacon of overall value in the market for items." everything that you have stated is 100% on the mark.

Let me clarify..
"I think 'SOLD LISTINGS' on Ebay have become a general beacon of overall value in the market for items."

(And maybe that brings us closer to being on the same page)..

Looking at Active listings is NOT a beacon of market value because you have:
1: Tons of (supposedly) New stuff listed BIN at full MSRP hoping to snag a unsuspecting buyer.
2: A bunch of dipsh*ts listing Readers Digest cars for $9.99 each. (and 7.99 shipping  )

The funny thing.. The seller from whom I bought the NYC 180199, (and today 180179) I think they were taking the price tags and multiplying them by 2 or 3 for the ebay listing (with no clue of what it was)
$6 Atlas Cars (that sell for $5-6 each) were $14-$18
$3-$4 Micro Trains cars (That would sell for who knows what on auction..) were $10-$12..
The newer the cars, the more expensive they got.
AND EVERYTHING WAS FREE SHIPPING! (which typically I dislike, but prices are cheap enough, I don't care..)
Go check it out and stock up your inventory.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/Freight-Cars/69814/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=&_ssn=es69196919

~Ian

[pmpexpress]

Go check it out and stock up your inventory.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/Freight-Cars/69814/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=&_ssn=es69196919

~Ian

With my own inventory and numerous consignment Kadee Micro-Trains and Micro-Trains Line models on hand, I will pass.

Besides, not particularly interested in additional Kadee Micro-Trains and Micro-Trains Lines purchases because of huge changes in my historical (i.e., documenting the products of pioneering N-Scale manufacturers) and modeling interests (i.e., BNSF Fuselage transport operations, The Clinchfield Railroad, and mainly, the container terminal and grain facilities located in Prince Rupert BC Canada).

Notwithstanding some diesel locomotive and rolling-stock acquisitions to cover the modeling of the aforementioned BNSF, Clinchfield, and Canadian National BC operations, the only N-Scale purchases that I make are really obscure models and kits from long gone manufacturers, ocean going Intermodal related products (i.e., containers, cranes, dock handling equipment, ships, terminal structures, vehicles, and well-cars), and exotic locomotives, rolling-stock, and craftsman structure kits.

[nscalbitz]

Let me clarify..
...
https://www.ebay.com/sch/Freight-Cars/69814/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=&_ssn=es69196919

~Ian

F***N idiot if you ask me  . Original MDC/RH priced at nearly twice MTL/Kadee (I dont care which-I have a few of both) in what market?
Hope he doesnt  search and find out what a tool he is>>>> 

[randgust]

The nuttiest thing I actually know about was a custom run that one of my good friends did when MT announced their 34' hoppers.   He was a CPA, since passed, this was about .... 1977-9 or so.  He had 100 black B&O two-bay hoppers done with an odd car number as a custom order from MT, all the same, other than that they were stock run.  And this is WAY pre-internet, but he subscribed to the mailed 'auction' of N scale equipment.   He wasn't a collector, he was a runner, and he had a layout that could actually handle a 100 car train of MT hoppers.

He probably got them for a little less than normal retail.   A few years later he took a couple and put them on the mail auction and got pretty much of an absurd offer and started selling a few.  I don't remember what they went for but it was in the hundreds each.    I remember him joking that of all the investments he'd made in his lifetime, the highest yields were in MT hoppers due to the special run car number.

By the time he passed the Internet and Ebay were in full swing, and the estate had to settle.  One of my friends helped with the liquidation of the N scale, and told me that the average car price was now going about $25.    As far as I know they all sold, but if anybody else out there got 'collector' black B&O hoppers - and they were used, not mint, with some dust on them but likely original boxes, PM me, I'll tell you more.  The only distinguishing characteristic is what would appear to be an "unlisted" car number.

I'm not sure if the 'collector' lists include special runs like this, anybody know?   I recently sold some "collector" Atlas O cars and got a good but not spectacular price (odd car number and lettering, custom run) but it was actually documented online by Atlas as a special run as proof of rarity.

I've got one of those 40' double-door SP boxcars from early on, and it's been modified and weathered.  What can I say, but I also don't spend any time bemoaning it.  I'm a runner.

[learmoia]

F***N idiot if you ask me  . Original MDC/RH priced at nearly twice MTL/Kadee (I dont care which-I have a few of both) in what market?
Hope he doesnt  search and find out what a tool he is>>>> 

Ohh Now, Be Nice!