Author Topic: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..  (Read 2875 times)

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learmoia

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Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« on: March 13, 2019, 09:04:05 PM »
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So... on my Vintage N scale quest, I had been on the lookout for NYC 180199 (KDMT 20047)

Based on these listings, (the car isn't cheap)..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kadee-Micro-Trains-20047-New-York-Central-Boxcar-NYC-180199-Blue-Label-1-of-60/223428136298?hash=item34055acd6a:g:C4IAAOSwe~lceCQU

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kadee-Micro-Trains-Rare-NYC-40-box-car-180199-N-scale/163543629864?hash=item2613f5c028:g:8bEAAOSwbsta839~

There was an auction that ended at $30 (but they didn't list the product # or car number)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kadee-N-Scale-NYC-New-York-Central-Railroad-Train-Standard-Single-Door-Box-Car-/372617447721?nma=true&si=e0KXTddipvlKs6mA9wM0jXSbtCw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


I ended up getting mine for $15..  Either I got lucky and the seller didn't realize it was rare.. or there is a rare version and common version.
Mine is blue label ends, black text on the back label.. with a second $3 price tag on the back.
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

The 2 High listings say their car is 1 of 60 released..

Thoughts?


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peteski

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2019, 09:46:52 PM »
+1
$15?  Must not have the factory air still in the jewel box.  :D
I thought that the collector's market sort of fell apart in the last decade or so.
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robert3985

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2019, 09:52:16 PM »
+1
The first thing I do with ANY Kadee or Micro Engineering car is lower it, replace the wheelsets with FVM lo-pros, I used to snip off the truck mounted couplers and put body-mounted Z scale couplers on...but now I snip off the truck mounted couplers and put ME True Scale couplers on...then I take the running board off and substitute an etched one or thin it down if it represents a wood one...then I weather it, and then...maybe change the number.

I NEVER look, nor do I care if it's collectible or not.

Which, drives several of my model railroad buddies bonkers...  :D

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

Point353

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2019, 10:26:20 PM »
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$15?  Must not have the factory air still in the jewel box.  :D
I thought that the collector's market sort of fell apart in the last decade or so.
About 15 years ago, in an NSC auction, some collector bid close to $1,000 for one of those cars.

Missaberoad

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2019, 10:36:32 PM »
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Often features like door style used, printing errors or the orientation of the brake wheel on asymmetrical paint schemes (such as the Santa fe map scheme) can significantly affect value.

I can't see anything that dintinguishes yours from the others, so who knows.

I've noticed an upward trend lately of asking prices for model train items. Either the collectors market is making a comeback or there are a number of hopeful sellers...

Personally I would buy several atlas Ps1s for the money. :trollface:
Ryan in Alberta

squirrelhunter

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 11:10:58 PM »
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I think the general increase in model train prices is due mainly to the long gaps in supply of many items due to the supply disruptions in China in the last decade and the fact manufacturers are clearly making smaller runs compared to earlier in the 2000's. There are some Atlas items recently that functionally never hit the retail network- clearly demand was almost entirely absorbed by pre orders.

pmpexpress

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2019, 05:40:23 AM »
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So... on my Vintage N scale quest, I had been on the lookout for NYC 180199 (KDMT 20047)

Based on these listings, (the car isn't cheap)..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kadee-Micro-Trains-20047-New-York-Central-Boxcar-NYC-180199-Blue-Label-1-of-60/223428136298?hash=item34055acd6a:g:C4IAAOSwe~lceCQU

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kadee-Micro-Trains-Rare-NYC-40-box-car-180199-N-scale/163543629864?hash=item2613f5c028:g:8bEAAOSwbsta839~

There was an auction that ended at $30 (but they didn't list the product # or car number)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kadee-N-Scale-NYC-New-York-Central-Railroad-Train-Standard-Single-Door-Box-Car-/372617447721?nma=true&si=e0KXTddipvlKs6mA9wM0jXSbtCw%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


I ended up getting mine for $15..  Either I got lucky and the seller didn't realize it was rare.. or there is a rare version and common version.
Mine is blue label ends, black text on the back label.. with a second $3 price tag on the back.
(Attachment Link)

The 2 High listings say their car is 1 of 60 released..

Thoughts?

Three Kadee Micro-Trains 20047 New York Central Blue Label 40' Steel Single Sliding Door Boxcars (with reporting numbers 180189 which was released in December 1972, 180197 which was released in April 1973, and 180199 which was released in July 1973) were produced.

While the 180189 and 180197 cars are relatively common, the N Scale Collector (now called the N Scale Enthusiast) and the N-Scale Reference Guide (which was formerly called the Sootsman's Guide and is now compiled by Jack Armstrong, with assistance from Bob McAllan) have both reported that only twenty-four to twenty-five of the 180199 were produced.

Based upon reviews of N Scale Collector auction closes, closed eBay transactions, and my own personal sales of several of the 180199 models, it was I who suggested that as many as sixty of the 180199 cars might have been produced.

Achieved at an N Scale Collector auction on November 2003, the high book figure for a 180199 in mint condition is $2311.99.

Nowadays, courtesy of eBay, the quantity of produced cars appears to be somewhat higher than was previously thought, making the aforementioned auction close figure quite dubious



The 180199 was such a celebrated collectible that the N Scale Collector released a New York Central System special run set (i.e., NSC 93-41 Collector Interest Series #2) that included a paper insert that told the story of the 180199 model and consisted of reproductions of Kadee's first three Blue Label NYC 40' boxcars.



If you look carefully, you will notice a typo in the scan of the NSC 93-41 paper insert label that I have included with this post.

In the second paragraph, the 18099 is referred to as "a mint condition #18199..."

A purchase price of $15.00 - $30.00 for a complete used example of the 180199 is reasonable.

Certainly a very clean example with some evidence of minor paint rubs on one side of the car body, the only reason why eBay listing number 372617447721 achieved such a low $30.19 closing figure is because the seller failed to list the Kadee Micro-Trains stock number and the car's reporting number in the title.

strummer

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 08:37:50 AM »
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I don't know if the "collector market" mentality can be explained. It seems there are people out there who are willing to buy any release by a given manufacturer.

A good example is what you'll see over in the Lionel world: any sort of model, be it a super-detailed Challenger or Thomas the tank, or even the "Batman" train (talk about "foobies") is eagerly sought after, pre-ordered or snapped up.

What I don't get is often the same fellows who will say that the roof and tender deck colors on the newest release PRR H-10 ("...no it isn't: it's an H-9"...) isn't exactly per the prototype, yet will then turn around and buy the "Halloween" boxcar (or whatever) without a second thought.   :?

To each his own, I guess...   :)

Mark in Oregon

SP-Wolf

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2019, 09:15:03 AM »
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@learmoia 

Question, did you change the trucks/wheels on this -?  As they are of current design. I believe the wheels should be the rib backed metal wheels on plastic axle. If you didn't, perhaps that could explain the low price. Just throwing it out there.

Wolf

learmoia

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2019, 09:39:31 AM »
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@learmoia 

Question, did you change the trucks/wheels on this -?  As they are of current design. I believe the wheels should be the rib backed metal wheels on plastic axle. If you didn't, perhaps that could explain the low price. Just throwing it out there.

Wolf


It has rib back wheels..

@pmpexpress
Thanks for the info.. the story makes sense.

The time line doesn't make sense when compared to the MTL excel list.
NYC 180199 was produced (MT shows REL 7/73) but errors found, and not shipped?
Replaced by NYC 180189 REL 12/72? (different print plate [text over logo, car data re-arranged slightly)

NYC 180189 was released 12/72
Then NYC 180197 REL 4/73 (Same print plate as 180189.. the 7 makes it obvious they just changed a digit to renumber.)
Then NYC 180199 REL 7/73 (when they decided the send out to rejects?).. There must have been enough to record a release... maybe not just a matter of putting throwing them in the 180197 bin.

Either way.. thanks for all the info.. ! and I understand why the NSC cars comes up in my searches.

~Ian
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 09:55:15 AM by learmoia »
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RRRover

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2019, 10:09:10 AM »
+1
I figured the "collector" market was dead nowadays. Plus I'm not one to collect something just to show off to others - why show off something created by someone else? I echo Mr. Gilmore's sentiments, who cares if it's collectible? I purchase cars because I either like them or I don't - it's that simple. Then I weather/lower.

conrad

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2019, 10:38:52 AM »
+1
$15?  Must not have the factory air still in the jewel box.  :D
I thought that the collector's market sort of fell apart in the last decade or so.

I think most train people are collectors in one sense or another.  Think of what we have in train boxes, closets, storage bins, etc.  I bet even big time "operators" have locos and cars that haven't been run in years.  In my case, I recently "deacquisitioned" 30 - 40 building kits, all in original boxes and most with the original shrink wrap on them (factory air still inside).

David K. Smith

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2019, 11:23:24 AM »
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I think most train people are collectors in one sense or another.

I think it's fair to make a distinction between "collectors" and "accumulators." The former can be further divided into "investors," those who are actively leveraging perceived accrued value (which is basically a house of cards), as opposed to "pure collectors," those who enjoy displaying and studying their vast material wealth. Whereas "accumulators" just hoard stuff compulsively--they simply want, want, want.

 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 11:26:46 AM by David K. Smith »
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JMaurer1

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2019, 11:27:53 AM »
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Back before the housing crash in 2007 the collector market was running wild as people had too much money and were willing to spend it. MT cars drew some crazy prices as there were almost as many collectors as runners (maybe more). Once the market crashed, so did most of the MT collector market as people suddenly became more careful with how they spent their money. The problem is that the high prices DID happen, but most likely won't ever skyrocket that high again. Someone decides to sell a car and checks the prices that the car obtained and use the overinflated prices of pre-2007 to set their price...and it doesn't sell. In two of the examples you sited, the cars are still for sale as nobody wants to pay $200 for the car, let alone the $2000+ high water mark. The third example looks like someone just selling some of their cars not knowing was the 'collectable' value was. It got 19 bids and sold for $30 so the current price for this (rare) car is $30. The collectable market has pretty much died.
Sacramento Valley NTrak

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Re: Need help understanding Kadee collector market..
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2019, 12:58:24 PM »
+2
Heh. At the NSC convention in Louisville - 2008, with the infamous monster N-Trak layout - a fellow had a booth selling "collectibles". A Chinese red CB&Q boxcar with the "Everywhere West" slogan caught my eye (for some reason :D ). Queried, "$60" was the response. "Oh. No thanks." I was later informed the vendor was NSC president.

I have a bunch of "blue label" and "black label" Kadee cars, bought new at list or less, in the bench queue for FVM wheels. A few may even still have "factory air" since I was accumulating for a future layout at the time. It will please me to no end to know there will be a disruption in The Force in the collector market when I open the boxes ("horrors") and start modifying them ("OMG NO!!!!").

:trollface:
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