Making a Bobber Caboose- PRR ND and Variants

[narrowminded]

A few folks have come through with some very useful information.   It's very helpful and I can't say enough how i appreciate that help.   I could still use some interior pictures for details and colors, in case anybody has any.

[randgust]

Curious if anyone knows from personal or written accounts how those things rode.
I know conductors and brakemen were pretty vocal when it came to their comfort.

In April of 2010 I had the opportunity of a lifetime to ride the photo freight at Strasburg, in the bobber caboose, and jumped at it.   I rode in the cupola.

Instructions from the crew:  DO NOT GET OUT OF YOUR SEAT, HANG ON, AND KEEP YOUR HEAD CLEAR OF THE WALL AND OBSTRUCTIONS.  Holy crap, it was bad.  If it had any springs in the draft gear, you couldn't feel it.  We had a 12-car freight of vintage stuff and a coach; and unlike any other caboose I've been in, it noticeably crabbed and hunted down the track.   And all the normal action of jointed rail.  So between the slack runout/shock and the crabbing, I immediately came to the conclusion that I understood why crews absolutely hated these things.   It really rode bad.  I've been in various ex-CR/PC/PRR cabooses over the years for comparison.  I did not inspect the wheels, but considering Strasburg's attention to maintenance and restoration, I had no reason to blame that, as the rest of the car was immaculate.

I can only imagine what this would have been like on a longer, or faster, train.

If there's another bobber that's RUNNING, I don't know about it.

[narrowminded]

In April of 2010 I had the opportunity of a lifetime to ride the photo freight at Strasburg, in the bobber caboose, and jumped at it.   I rode in the cupola.

Ah, yes!  And thanks for the photos you sent.

@randgust  From that vantage point do you have any photos or any recollection of the windows in the main cabin?  I ask because in working on the window size and placement I was running against some illogical dimensions... UNLESS, the windows are mounted flush to the inside wall, sliding in tracks mounted to the interior wall face or at least nearly so.  I was coming to this conclusion, finding it peculiar at least as any normal household window might be mounted, as I was trying to get the obvious deeply set outside dimension to work with one of the few dimensions I had that I was reasonably comfortable with, that being 3"+ wall thickness.  Just as I was concluding that the windows must project into the cabin I received some of the pics you sent and low and behold, up in the cupola, the windows are mounted as I was thinking they must be, albeit thinner walls and sliding rather than lifting. 

For a matter of knowing these things and little to no extra effort, they can be made correct rather than my own idea of what they should have been.  The meeting that decided that was WAY before my time and I wouldn't have been invited anyway. 

[skm]

Ah, yes!  And thanks for the photos you sent.

@randgust  From that vantage point do you have any photos or any recollection of the windows in the main cabin?  I ask because in working on the window size and placement I was running against some illogical dimensions... UNLESS, the windows are mounted flush to the inside wall, sliding in tracks mounted to the interior wall face or at least nearly so.  I was coming to this conclusion, finding it peculiar at least as any normal household window might be mounted, as I was trying to get the obvious deeply set outside dimension to work with one of the few dimensions I had that I was reasonably comfortable with, that being 3"+ wall thickness.  Just as I was concluding that the windows must project into the cabin I received some of the pics you sent and low and behold, up in the cupola, the windows are mounted as I was thinking they must be, albeit thinner walls and sliding rather than lifting. 

For a matter of knowing these things and little to no extra effort, they can be made correct rather than my own idea of what they should have been.  The meeting that decided that was WAY before my time and I wouldn't have been invited anyway. 

Mark I think you are right. The windows may well be mounted on the inside wall in the same way that the window on the rear door is mounted, on a sliding rack.
Worth noting that, as per the pics you posted, the window frames are not 'centered' in the openings when closed.
On another note, perhaps easier to have brass etchings of the window frames made so you could apply glass almost flush with the frames?

[Lemosteam]

Mark I think you are right. The windows may well be mounted on the inside wall in the same way that the window on the rear door is mounted, on a sliding rack.
Worth noting that, as per the pics you posted, the window frames are not 'centered' in the openings when closed.
On another note, perhaps easier to have brass etchings of the window frames made so you could apply glass almost flush with the frames?

Easier to laser print the frames on clear acetate than to try to build things up.

[randgust]

Here, check this out.  There are interior shots of the wooden PRR N6B at Whippany, which can be assumed to be of similar if not identical construction methods.    The windows show clearly.

http://www.whippanyrailwaymuseum.net/exhibits/equipment/cabooses/penn-n6b-cabin-car

[narrowminded]

Mark I think you are right. The windows may well be mounted on the inside wall in the same way that the window on the rear door is mounted, on a sliding rack.
Worth noting that, as per the pics you posted, the window frames are not 'centered' in the openings when closed.
On another note, perhaps easier to have brass etchings of the window frames made so you could apply glass almost flush with the frames?

I think that the regular frame dimension visible from the outside, on the sides and top with the extra exposed frame at the bottom, is the result of a window with uniform framing width and the reason we see the wide bottom is because the window slides up and that face is fully exposed from the outside, just sets/ stops on the sill where the other three sides are partially hidden and serve as the interior sliding faces, retained by a channel of some sort from the interior. 

That interior guide will be very visible from the interior so I want to get some detail of it to get its appearance acceptably correct.  With a detailed interior, glass windows, and the interior lit, these will be visible to anyone crazy enough to get up close and look in.   Detailing of the interior will be optional but again, it won't really be any harder to make them correct even if only I know they are there.   Making them functional?  That would be another whole challenge which I have not accepted... yet.

Here, check this out.  There are interior shots of the wooden PRR N6B at Whippany, which can be assumed to be of similar if not identical construction methods.    The windows show clearly.

http://www.whippanyrailwaymuseum.net/exhibits/equipment/cabooses/penn-n6b-cabin-car

Thanks Randy, for that link to the N6b.  It has some useful views but the cabin windows aren't mounted as I am determining they must be on the ND series.  The doors are and also the cupola, I think, but the cabin windows slide within the wall, further confirmed by the exterior view that shows them with way less inset than the ND.  At least I think that's all true with just a quick view.  I'll be studying them further. 

I had no idea what that framing business on the outside of the door was, thinking it might be some sort of beefed up metal security frame added at some later time but this cleared that up for me.  It IS the window sliding frame, mounted on the outside, with the window sliding downward to open.  I wasn't even thinking of those being able to open.  Kinda' weird looking but totally functional.  As much as I hate it, I will have to include it.   It also showed up on the Ma&Pa caboose that had different exterior cabin window trim.  At least this far, I will use it as indicative to what the interior cabin window slides might have looked like.  I also think the interior guides may have limited the window to 1/2 open, up one set of glass panes.

[narrowminded]

Easier to laser print the frames on clear acetate than to try to build things up.

I will be trying to use actual glass and have ordered slide cover slips for this.  I will probably be making an adjustable cutting fixture for the glass as tolerance will be pretty tight.  If I can make it workable I will use glass windows regularly so making a cutting fixture will be worth the effort.   It is my intent to sandwich them between the outer and an inner frame piece and after the next test print will have an idea if it will work.  I think it will.   In fact, I know it will.   I just don't know if it knows it will.

[skm]

I think that the regular frame dimension visible from the outside, on the sides and top with the extra exposed frame at the bottom, is the result of a window with uniform framing width and the reason we see the wide bottom is because the window slides up and that face is fully exposed from the outside, just sets/ stops on the sill where the other three sides are partially hidden and serve as the interior sliding faces, retained by a channel of some sort from the interior. 

That interior guide will be very visible from the interior so I want to get some detail of it to get its appearance acceptably correct.  With a detailed interior, glass windows, and the interior lit, these will be visible to anyone crazy enough to get up close and look in.   Detailing of the interior will be optional but again, it won't really be any harder to make them correct even if only I know they are there.   Making them functional?  That would be another whole challenge which I have not accepted... yet.

@randgust  thanks for that link to the N6b.  It has some useful views but the cabin windows aren't mounted as I am determining they must be on the ND series.  The doors are and also the cupola, I think, but the cabin windows slide within the wall, further confirmed by the exterior view that shows them with way less inset than the ND.  At least I think that's all true with just a quick view.  I'll be studying them further. 

I had no idea what that framing business on the outside of the door was, thinking it might be some sort of beefed up metal security frame added at some later time but this cleared that up for me.  It IS the window sliding frame, mounted on the outside, with the window sliding downward to open.  I wasn't even thinking of those being able to open.  Kinda' weird looking but totally functional.  As much as I hate it, I will have to include it.   It also showed up on the Ma&Pa caboose that had different exterior window framing.  At least this far, I will use it as indicative to what the interior cabin window slides might have looked like.  I also think the interior guides may have limited the window to 1/2 open, up one set of glass panes.

Pics on the website appear to indicate that the side windows didn't open at all? The back of the window frame was flush with the inside wall and was held in place by what look like 3x1s.
Unless there is an internal frame that is not immediately apparent. This is a different/rebuilt class, so might not be the same. YMMV...

[narrowminded]

Pics on the website appear to indicate that the side windows didn't open at all? The back of the window frame was flush with the inside wall and was held in place by what look like 3x1s.
Unless there is an internal frame that is not immediately apparent. This is a different/rebuilt class, so might not be the same. YMMV...

That's the N6 from Randy's Pics.  It is different from the ND I'm modelling.  Here's what I put in the middle of that lengthy post:  "@randgust  thanks for that link to the N6b.  It has some useful views but the cabin windows aren't mounted as I am determining they must be on the ND series.  The doors are and also the cupola, I think, but the cabin windows slide within the wall, further confirmed by the exterior view that shows them with way less inset than the ND.  At least I think that's all true with just a quick view.  I'll be studying them further." 

It may be as you say, that they don't open at all, but pre-air conditioning days that would surprise me.   In some of the pics Randy sent to me of the restored Strasburg ND there are shots with the windows open.  Also, they were halfway and as I look at the rest of the limiting general dimensions, that's what brought me to thinking they may only open halfway.  I don't know that, though.

Those views DO help with guessing at the window placement height, using the sink/ counter as a reference.

[narrowminded]

Making progress.   Need some confirmation on exterior and interior colors.  I'm thinking of using Model Master Acrylics as I have sprayed them, they sprayed well, and they are readily available at my local hobby shop.  They also seem to have a pretty good selection of Vallejo.  Unless someone has a strong reason to use otherwise, that's the direction I'll go.

Now to color numbers.  The proper choices seem to be MM #4881 Boxcar Red for the exterior and with a little less confidence, MM #4878 Depot Buff for the interior.  I worry that the Buff is a little too dark but that's just from an online paint chip.  My judgement is pretty bad with those little samples.

Feeling pretty good about the overall shell dimensions and window and door dimensions and placement.  Also, from the pictures I received, especially those from @randgust, I feel comfortable taking a shot at the window frames in the main cabin.  I will still try to get a visit to Strasburg to confirm everything before to call it done but will proceed with the design.  Guaranteed something will be not quite right.

[narrowminded]

Second test print is in the printer.  I've changed many details based on more research and especially on the info received from @dougnelson and @randgust.  Thanks to them and to all who've added something to the thread.

It's still the basic shell but with many edits and the board grooves size adjusted and applied everywhere that they should be.  The doors are resized and better detailed, the windows are all resized, the mullions reduced, the window frames removed except the sills which are angled as the pictures show, the roof radius and length and width changed to the best I can guess, etc.  Basically a total redraw.   About the only thing that was retained is the basic shell dimensions.  And those may need adjusted before it's all done but I have nothing definitive to cause a change yet.  The floor to window height has me a little concerned but nothing in the pics or build articles suggests it should be other than it is.  Also, the main cabin windows do set within the walls much like the N6b pictures show.  I think the window inset must be about what I've now got or else the walls are thicker.  

I'll know in a few hours if it is looking like what I want and post pics when I get a chance, probably later today.   Here's hoping!

[narrowminded]

Heading to Strasburg today tomorrow for dimensions and detail information.  There's the Strasburg RR restored piece, one more across the street at the museum, rebadged for another road, and the caboose hotel near the model train museum for a third.  I should be able to get something resolved.

Meanwhile, here's a quick shot of the latest test print with my best guesses this far and some adjusted detail dimensions.  Decided to wait on doing any more anticipating some real numbers from a visit.

Just a quick shot of primer.

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[narrowminded]

OK, tested the paint color choices and procedure to see what I would see.  I'm thinking it's good but would accept recommendations.  The paints are Model Masters colors.  Grimy Black for the roof, Boxcar Red for the shell, and Depot Buff for the interior.  Tomorrow's Strasburg visit may add something to the interior color but so far I think that should be good.  This is the same test shell now test painted.   I think I should spend some prep time on the real one but it looks pretty good to me for a quickie.  I'm happy so far.

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[Missaberoad]

This is so inspiring... Very much enjoying seeing the progress!