Model railroad 'ethics'

[DKS]

However, David, in NMRA contests don't contestants do exactly that with detail parts, and list those that they purchased from suppliers vs those they handcrafted themselves?

I wouldn't know--I'm not a member, and have never submitted a model at one of their contests. So, I confess my complete ignorance in that respect. But I don't think it's relevant to the OP.

In fishing, I guess the equivalent would be the boat owner claiming credit for the catching of a record fish even though the guy fishing from the back seat caught it on a borrowed rod and real using a lure someone else suggested he try. Who deserves the credit, the person who plays and lands the fish, the boat owner for taking him to that spot, or the friend who suggested the lure to use?

I don't fish either.

 

[Chris333]

I sold a mostly scratchbuilt steamer on eBay. Ended up being Jerry DeBene who won it. He added decals to it and won some type of award with it. From what another person told me there was a card displayed with the model that listed me as the builder. I didn't care either way, but he did give me credit.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

This issue has reared its ugly head quite a few times over the years. How many so-called modelers have won awards for models they simply bought? I've personally interacted with a couple, and they adamantly insist there's nothing wrong. I beg to differ... strongly. I would maintain "unethical" is not over-the-top, because I'd argue it's the assumption by most people that an entry was built by the person entering it. And I'd recommend that all future modeling contest organizers include an "I built this model, Y/N" line on their entry forms.

Uh... one of the reasons I'm no longer with Northeast N-Trak. There is a guy [he knows who he is] that won several awards for stock or nearly stock models in the contests. These models would be dullcoated or at best brush painted in rust and submitted. They won over a my kit-bashed low nose Mass Central GP9 (the one that got on the cover of N-Scale), a FLEET of C30-7As and an SW1500 kit-bash that preceded the MTL model by years. That last one was a hard swallow because I actually submitted the lamented N-Scale article with it to show the work put in. And what won? that guy's stock C44-9 brush painted in rust.

I'm not saying I was the best - far from it. There were kit-built shays that were beautiful. Super detailed models that go beyond anything I would ever do. But that guy always won.

Here is the thing. If I won an award and thought someone did a better job, I would refuse it and publicly point out that modeler during presentation. It's just the right thing to do.

One thing I have noticed is that the modular guys are very, VERY cliquey. There was an undercurrent of showboating that I did not like. There are certainly a LOT of really nice guys there. But a few bad apples can really ruin it.

[daniel_leavitt2000]

It’s certainly a valid question. The custom car world is a good current example where many award winning builds are not done by the owner of the car, but by a custom car shop who built the car commissioned by the owner. History is replete with artists creating art or music under commission from a benefactor, but in those cases the original artist or composer remained attached to the work, typically by signing the work in some manner.

One major difference in this is that most professional restoration jobs are done by - professionals. If i'm at Pebble Beach Concours, I know that these are rich men's toys being built for them. Those that view, judge and award are also aware.

Not so much in modeling. We are supposedly the producers. That's why it's called modeling. It isn't an industry like you see with the professional car restoration and auction circuit.

[DKS]

We are supposedly the producers. That's why it's called modeling.

This.

[peteski]

Uh... one of the reasons I'm no longer with Northeast N-Trak. There is a guy [he knows who he is] that won several awards for stock or nearly stock models in the contests. These models would be dullcoated or at best brush painted in rust and submitted. They won over a my kit-bashed low nose Mass Central GP9 (the one that got on the cover of N-Scale), a FLEET of C30-7As and an SW1500 kit-bash that preceded the MTL model by years. That last one was a hard swallow because I actually submitted the lamented N-Scale article with it to show the work put in. And what won? that guy's stock C44-9 brush painted in rust.

NE-NTRAk Winterfest model contest? That is an extremely poor example of a contest.  IMO, it is a joke, but it brings the modelers in.

First of all, it is "judged" by popular vote ballots.  So it is the attendees, not knowledgeable judges, who decide the winners.  Some the "judges" probably can't tell the difference between a factory model and a good scratchbuilt one. So the vote will go the whatever model they like the bast.

Second, there is no info about the models displayed anywhere.  So the voters have no ideal just about how much work went into the model.  Sure, there are few voting "judges" who will be able to tell a factory-stock model, or how much work went into some scratchbuilding effort, but I really think that most votes are cast on the likability factor.

I have lobbied for requiring a small writeup about the model to be included and displayed with the model (like we do at my model car club contests), but I doubt that this will happen (that would take up too much space in the display cases).  Plus, since these are not "professionally" judged, how many voters would ever bother to read that writeup.  And even then, the are not obligated to vote for the model woth most effort put into it - they can still vote for whatever they like.

I would have been bummed if I felt that the contest was judged unfairly (if you even call it "judging"), but I wouldn't have quit the club because of that.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Personally, I don't know what the point of model railroad contests is. And ethical questions like this just start begging questions that make it even sillier.

I mean, at the end of the day, everyone short of Max and his 0-6-0, are all just standing on the shoulders of one purchased giant or another.

[Dave V]

I personally have never entered a contest and probably never will.  It's one thing if you're at a show and folks are judging everything or, like at the Narrow Gauge Convention when judges come 'round and look at layouts as part of the show.  But I don't need to have my modeling "validated" by a ribbon or an award.  I do it for the love of trains and nothing more.

[Chris333]

Personally, I don't know what the point of model railroad contests is.

Same here. The model I listed above was sitting on a shelf collecting dust I had no plans to enter it into a contest.

Same with my VW bug, everyone who sees it asks if I'll be taking it to car shows. No I'll be driving it.

[DKS]

Personally, I don't know what the point of model railroad contests is.

I do think there are valid contests, assuming they make sense, the entries fit the criteria, and they're carefully managed and judged. Despite not being an NMRA member, I'd venture to say they likely have the "best" contests (although I could be wrong--I'm no fan of the NMRA). The worst, by all measures, are "popularity" (judged by the attending audience) contests because too many attendees have no clue what they're "judging." Anyway, The Railwire has its own contest (on rare occasion), and they seem to go very well by all accounts. So, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I personally have never entered a contest and probably never will.  It's one thing if you're at a show and folks are judging everything or, like at the Narrow Gauge Convention when judges come 'round and look at layouts as part of the show.  But I don't need to have my modeling "validated" by a ribbon or an award.  I do it for the love of trains and nothing more.

We all have our reasons for entering or not. I confess the very few times I did (barring the Railwire contests, which were purely for fun), it was under the advice of peers who thought I should, and against my better judgment. I even won an award in a contest I never even entered (http://davidksmith.com/modeling/jrb-5.htm). I bolded Dave V's line above to reflect my own sentiment.

 

[arbomambo]

My personal opinion:
I remove myself ( my modules and/or models) for all contest considerations , but I do particiiate innrandomn raffle and door prize drawings. I, personally don’t feel a need to have my efforts validated by others to determine whether I feel good about my efforts. I can easily determine, with a critical eye, how my efforts comparevto others.
Regardless, I feel that taking/receiving credit for another’s efforts falls on the wrong side of ethical/moral behavior period.
 The module(s) that influenced my post is/are by no stretch of the imagination examples of great, or even ‘good’ modeling; but they are ‘crowd pleasers’ and garner lots of attention at shows.
 For the abovevreason, alone, I would always welcome them in a setup/layout, but to continue to see the owner garner awards/prizes/recognition for it/them, seems very wrong.
 We ( those of us who organize these large regional and national layouts) are taking steps to eliminate the above...
Manufacturers/prize donors who judge module contests will be made aware of these new rules.
 Only module/model ‘builders’ qualify for the prizes.
No duplicate winners ( if  a module won last year, it can’t participate this year.
Apart from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in a module contest, all other prize donations solicited for the event, will be awarded by a drawing, made up from all participants, with each participant being able to win only once.

[mmagliaro]

I say it's unethical. Buying a module and entering it into a contest is no different than "buying" a model of an engine or piece of rolling stock - or commissioning someone to build it for you - and then entering said item in a contest. Could someone buy Max's SP&S steamer from him and then enter it in contests to win prizes without complaints?

...

No, they couldn't, because I wouldn't sell it for 10 bajillion dollars.   
...and because if somebody got their hands on it,  I would hunt them down until I was 6 feet under.  (Okay, so my New Jersey upbringing may be showing a little here).

Seriously, though, your point is exactly correct.

1. Entering a model you didn't build, or substantially enhance, is wrong and deserves nothing.

2. Doing so and not acknowledging it is not only wrong, but now is unethical because you are lying about who
did the work.  Stated or not, the assumption is always that the person entering is the person who built the model.
It is a lie by omission.  It is unethical.

3. Contests that allow this are bunk.  Say what you want about the NMRA, but at least their model contests require that YOU are the person who built the entry, and they expect you to specifically list what you built yourself and what parts are commercial.

4. Classic car shows are also wrong for giving out the prizes to the "owners".  If you didn't restore the car, they are giving you an award because you have lots of money and could afford to pay somebody else to buy you a prize.  That's bull.

5. Anybody entering a contest could always lie.  There's not much we can do about that.

A few more points...

If one enters a contest, and you win a prize that you think is better deserved by another model, I actually do not think it is right to decline the award.  Why?  Because it is not really up to you to decide what the best model is.  It is up to the judges.  You may not agree, but then, you might not agree when you DON'T win.   We cannot say who the best judge is, but by entering a contest, you are agreeing to abide by their decision, even if the decision goes your way and you don't agree.   Unless you have proof that something utterly phoney or against the rules occurred, the judges' decision is final.

The point of contests, at least if they are well-run, is not to carpet your wall with ribbons.  In my view, the point is to push you to build the very best model you can.  This happens in two ways.  One, knowing that you will be judged by a supposed "jury of your peers" can be a strong motivator.  Second, it can make you a better modeler.  If the judges note the things they took points off for, you can go back to the drawing board and make a better model next time.  This latter point is the one that has sometimes annoyed me at NMRA contests I have entered, as some of you know.  I don't mind losing points, and I don't mind not winning.  But if somebody knocks off a lot of points and doesn't say one word as to why, I learn nothing, and their quality as a judge is now suspect.

And NEITHER of these things happen if you are just entering work done by somebody else.

[Point353]

Does the above question equivelate to the example in my oroginal post?
Do you have any issue with the situation in your example?
Do you have an opinion on the example I shared?
I’m trying to gauge opinions either way...

It seems only fair to give the module's builder their due.

Regarding ethics, what does the particular contest stipulate in terms of disclosing by whom the module was created?
Can only the original builder enter a module in the contest or is it open to the current owner, as well?

How inclusive or exclusive do you want to make the contest?
Do you want to exclude an apartment/condo dweller who may not have the facilities to construct a module and has to have someone else build it for them?
Same for those with physical limitations such as poor eyesight or hand tremors.
 
As far as precluding previous contest winners from further eligibility, suppose that you have only one exceptionally fine module (that is also a previous contest winner) along with a group of mediocre ones.
Do you a declare a winner from among the 'best of the rest' or do you give the prize, again, to that one great module?
If you reward the one great module, does it encourage the losers to do better next time or does it just discourage those whose skills may never measure up?

Assuming that we're considering N-Trak/T-Trak modules, those groups tend to be more inclusive than exclusive.
IMO, give the winner a plaque that they can display on their module, exclude prior winning modules from future contests and give others an opportunity to share in the glory.


 

[alhoop]

One thing I have noticed is that the modular guys are very, VERY cliquey.

Have you not noticed the same thing about some members on this board?
Al

[peteski]

I belong to a model car club, and we put on an annual contest. Our contest has specific rules defined - bring up the contest flyer: http://classicplastic.org/cpmc-flyer-2019.pdf and check out our contest rules (especially rule 1, 2, 6, and 9).  There are other model car clubs out there, and they also have similar rules for their contests.  Then there is IPMS, and their contests - they also follow a set of well defined rules.  I would consider this type of judged contests meaningful as far as fairly evaluating models based on their merits (rather than on appearance only, or on popular votes).  No, contest is perfect, but those judged contest with a set of well defined rules will be more likely to be fair than some popular vote contest.

EDIT:  What I forgot to add to the original post is that we hear very few complaints (either directly from the entrants, or through the grapevine) about our contest or judging.  You can't ever please everybody (especially if they have unrealistic view or expectations), but I think my club is handling the contest very well.