The good news is, I didn't pay much for it... Steam Question for the tinkerers..

[Lemosteam]

Man... I've been SCHOOLED!
Thanks for all that information, Max.  Honestly, that is farther than I'm ready to go at this point.  If I was building a PRR fleet and this was the must have engine I needed for regular service with an ops crew that needed reliable engines, I would be all over it like a bad suit.

But in the end, DKS IS right, I'm looking to resolve the basic pick up issues, fix the traction tire, and pull this out of the drawer to run around the loop in the background while I'm working on house plans.  As I've said before, my train layout has gone from being the nearly full time obsession the old Western Maryland was to being sort of like an aquarium...  Little light flickering out of the corner of my eye, noticeable motion by its inhabitants, and a pleasant whirring sound.  If it needs to run a little fast to run smoothly, what the heck!  It IS the Broadway Limited!

With the K4 being offered by Bachmann now, when and if I need to have the be all/end all K-4, I'll pony up the 200 quid and get one.

But Max @mmagliaro , please don't think I underappreciate the work you have put into both this posting AND making old steam mechanisms dance to your tune.  Having grown up during the Dark Ages of N scale, and experiencing the horrors that you have corrected over the years, I swear you are nothing short of a miracle worker.

Lee

Which is exactly why I gave you a simplified post to solve the issues you specifically mentioned.  My K4 parts are still up for offer if you want, or I can just trade the whole chassis with you.

[brokemoto]

As Max and LeMerise have noted, improving the pick up does go far, but, it ain't quite far enough.

I once built a "looks much like a N&W E-3".  The prototype was a K-3 that N&W purchased used from the Penn.  The purchase apparently did not include tenders, as every photograph that I ever have seen of these things showed N&W type tenders.  I saw several where the thing had a tender that looked much like that on the N&W version of the LL USRA 2-8-8-2.

The locomotive body involved cutting down a TRIX K-4 shell and fusing the TRIX B-6 cab (the 0-6-0) to it.

The LL tender was all twelve wheels live and, oddly enough, had no electrical connexion to the locomotive.

I wired up this twelve wheels live tender to the unaltered TRIX power chassis. The improvement was marked, but, still, it was not quite what I wanted in terms of control.  I wound up selling it on FeePay.

Less than ideal electrical contact is one of the shortcomings of this thing, but, the motor and gearing is another.  This, of course, passes over the alien cylinders.

Some did improve the performance of this thing by swapping out the tender trucks for Kato caboose trucks.  (I might have some, somewhere, if you want me to look, let me know).  You did have to solder wires to the little nub on them, or, lay down bronze strips on the floor of the tender and solder wires to those.

For your purposes, since this is a "retro" pike, simply improving the contact so that it runs through all four speeds:  Very Fast, Still Too Fast, Faster Than I really Would Like and Not At All, might be the best fit.

I must admit that I like this idea of a "'retro" pike.  I have been following this topic with interest.  At this point, it is not something that I would do, but, it is interesting to learn others' experience with it and see the work here.  The Cumberland, Maryland station is a nice touch that sets it apart from others and dodges the (cue up echo chamber, thunder and lightning) "SOMMMMMMMMMEBODDDDYYYYY ELLLLLLLLLLLLLLSE'S LAYYYYYYYYYYOUTTTTTT"  shibboleth.

[randgust]

My apologies, I'm late to the party.

Compared to Max, I have very little to add here, but a couple of things.

Back 'in the day' those Trix 3-pole motors were pretty useful; shared between the U28, FM, U30, K4, 0-6-0, etc.   All they did was change some shaft lengths but the motors were the same.

My latest discovery - when I had to change the motor AGAIN in my Heisler (and I'd put one of the Trix in there to replace the original Atlas 3-pole) was that the Kato 11-103/4 critter motor is just the sweetest little five-pole, and is almost identically sized.   If you want a good $20 bet, just get one of those chassis for the motor alone.  You'll get a small five-pole motor that's much better made.

The second tip, which is only slightly different, is that while Kato is out of end-axle pickups on their tender as a separate part, there's still a lot of those shorty cupola cabooses out there, and those are worth it just for their pickup trucks and frame.   It's a short frame, and it can be split and adjusted to length for tender use, I've now done three of them.   For any of the 'classic' steam with one-side pickup and axle wipers, that's part of my go-to plan for improving performance - upgrade the tender pickup to all-wheel both side end-axles if at all possible.   And I'm not a fan of eliminating the pickup wipers, those push down on the truck nubs, which equalize the wheels for contact pressure when done right.   You can solder that if you want to, but you're getting rid of one of the best features for pickup that Kato designed - slightly loose contacts in the truck so they can flex under pressure and stay in contact with the rails.

I wondered when you'd show up with that K4 project.... we're rooting for you!

[wm3798]

Tremendous feedback...  You guys that have been elbow deep in steam are the best.
Yes, I would like to have a little more control with it, and would probably opt for the motor swap before I started messing with gears etc.
I have a Bachmann tender en route as we speak, so I'll do the phase 2 improvement (Phase 1 was adding weight to the shell) and see what we get.
I've got my eye on some other Rivarossi steam as well, when they're bad they're bad, but when they're good they seem to be pretty rock solid.  My simple loop layout doesn't pose any threat to the factory pick ups (running counter clockwise on the outer loop, the tender pick up never hits a plastic frog!)
My next project is resurrecting a Trix F unit (7? 9? who knows?) I bought a Penn Central to pull the silver Atlas cars I have accumulated, but the motor appears to be a dud.  There are some more arriving shortly so hopefully I can glom together a some functional power to tickle that itch... at least until I lose my mind and spring for a Rapido FL-9...
Lee

[Lemosteam]

FYI- the Minitrix tender shell is a near drop-on for the Bachmann (I assume you got) medium tender frame.

[mmagliaro]

I've got some Trix F unit shells and chassis banging around here, so if you need parts, let me know.

Randy... that's good info on the Kato critter motor.  Yes, having a small, decent 5-pole that fits in place of the existing Trix K4 motor is very handy.  There are some really nice, powerful, and very small open-frame 5-pole motors around made by
Hanazono.
Here's one source for them in the UK:
https://www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Sundry_Items__Lead_Foil__Chain_Etc_.html

I don't know why there are so many sources for this stuff in Europe but not here.

Mashima and Tenshodo also made variants of that same open frame motor in 16, 17, 20, and 21mm lengths.  This place
has a bunch of them:
https://www.scalelink.co.uk/acatalog/Sundry_Items__Lead_Foil__Chain_Etc_.html

These motors look a lot like what you'll find in some brass locos (and they probably are).  They are not skew-wound, but they are very powerful for their size, much better than the stock Trix motor.

Randy, I am TOTALLY with you on the Kato cabooses.  If they are $10 or less, I snap them up at train shows all the time just to harvest the chassis and trucks.  If you don't like the look of the sideframes, you can always flat-file those off and then graft on other sideframes from another truck that you slice off with a saw and file thin.

I think you are correct that preserving the floor strip system is nice because it keeps pressure on the cups and axle points, but that's not always possible if you are putting the trucks into some other tender floor.

[randgust]

At one time I had FIVE of those old Trix F-units, an ABBA set in ATSF passenger, and an A unit in ATSF freight that I painted.   I still have that one.

The motors in those were just THE WORST, well, maybe second-worst to the Atlas F/GP Roco ones.   The Trix motors had the worst problem with commutator buildup and fire rings of anything.  The frames were solid, the pickups and gears were OK, built like trucks.  The end gray 'cap' on the commutator acted like a trap for carbon at the slots, it would accumulate right there, and erupt.  It's no wonder Trix never used that motor on anything else, it was really a turkey.  It was a naturally hot-running motor.  I remember having to clean my ABBA set regularly if I was planning an operating session.  EVERY TIME.   And dig out the slots with custom tools I made.   I was so happy to sell those and replace them with Kato.

There was a Con-Cor Sekiusku (??) five-pole motor or a Sagami or something... that was a DEAD FIT for the Trix F-unit motor and was such a precise fit it was literally a squeeze fit in the frame using the original universals and no screws necessary.   That's what's in mine, and I'm pretty sure it hasn't been made in decades.   And that's why I keep that one F-7 survivor, ugly as it is, which is also my very oldest living chassis - the replacement motor is just golden.   It's amazing how well it still runs with no attention now at all.

I probably have at least one new or functional used Trix F-unit motor floating around if you want me to look, and I have no earthly use for it.   But it comes with the disclaimer that I'd work awfully hard to replace it with something better unless your retro-layout includes a retro-lesson on cleaning off motor commutators when they erupt in fire rings.   Ah, the memories.

I do like the old stuff though, it's probably one of the bigger reasons I use Peco C55 instead of Atlas C55.

[wm3798]

Yeah, I'm a little discouraged that my memory of those dreadful motors lapsed as I parted with more than a few dollars.  The engine I got does exactly that... build up and sparks flying...  I keep a can of contact cleaner handy, but that's obviously not the complete answer.

Many millions of years ago I remember repowering something with the reasonably newish design Life Like motor that came in their plastic frame GP38, but I can't recall if it was a Trix F or an old Atlas E-7...
Whatev.  I'm not above tinkering a bit more with the junk I've got in stock.

Probably doing nothing more than investing in shelf queens to pose the occasional photo run by, and remind myself why newer locomotives cost $100+ now instead of $15 like they did in my youth.  Even adjusted for inflation there's a pretty good value in spending money on things that work reliably!

Lee

[Lemosteam]

Yeah, I'm a little discouraged that my memory of those dreadful motors lapsed as I parted with more than a few dollars.  The engine I got does exactly that... build up and sparks flying...  I keep a can of contact cleaner handy, but that's obviously not the complete answer.

Many millions of years ago I remember repowering something with the reasonably newish design Life Like motor that came in their plastic frame GP38, but I can't recall if it was a Trix F or an old Atlas E-7...
Whatev.  I'm not above tinkering a bit more with the junk I've got in stock.

Probably doing nothing more than investing in shelf queens to pose the occasional photo run by, and remind myself why newer locomotives cost $100+ now instead of $15 like they did in my youth.  Even adjusted for inflation there's a pretty good value in spending money on things that work reliably!

Lee

Jeesh guys,

@wm3798 , I'll offer one more time.  I have full chassis (maybe even with a reduction gear), motors, driver sets, valve gear, cylinders, shells, light holders original weights, every single part needed to build a K4 from the rails up.  Yours for shipping. Send the damn loco to me and I'll rebuild it for free and send it back.  Do I have to beg?

[Point353]

For a vintage B&O F-unit, you might be better off with one from Arnold Rapido.
I've had one for 50 years - it ran well when I first got it and it still runs well.
Look for the later version with plastic truck sideframes rather than those than are fabricated from metal.
Try to get one of the matching unpowered b-units as well.


 

[wm3798]

@Lemosteam ... you're on.  Pm me an address and I'll get the chassis in the mail.
Lee

[wm3798]

For a vintage B&O F-unit, you might be better off with one from Arnold Rapido.
I've had one for 50 years - it ran well when I first got it and it still runs well.
Look for the later version with plastic truck sideframes rather than those than are fabricated from metal.
Try to get one of the matching unpowered b-units as well.

I actually have a Rapido F unit in DRGW.  It came in with the haul from my cousin.  I cleaned it up and it runs remarkably well... with one problem... no matter what I do it runs in the wrong direction.
I've turned the motor around, no change, reversed the contact strips, nope.
I'm wondering if the wheels in the trucks got flopped sometime in the last 45 years...
It plumb evades me.
And of course, it runs a thousand times better in reverse than forward

Is there something I'm missing?

[Point353]

I actually have a Rapido F unit in DRGW.  It came in with the haul from my cousin.  I cleaned it up and it runs remarkably well... with one problem... no matter what I do it runs in the wrong direction.
I've turned the motor around, no change, reversed the contact strips, nope.
I'm wondering if the wheels in the trucks got flopped sometime in the last 45 years...
It plumb evades me.
And of course, it runs a thousand times better in reverse than forward

Is there something I'm missing?

That's quite curious.
I don't recall ever encountering that issue either with my B&O loco or a later NYC unit.
The B&O loco was my second N scale loco acquisition (via Santa) and as a result it saw a lot of run time early on.
The only maintenance it needed was periodic lubrication and replacement of the motor brushes.
I never had occasion to remove the wheelsets from the trucks.

[wm3798]

I'm sure I committed some "double negative" reversing more things than I needed... my working time is always a dotted line between phone calls...odds are I was distracted and did something wrong.
I'll probably tear it down one more time and try to make sense of it, but in the end I'm probably going to sell it anyway.

But then I saw a set of DRGW heavyweights for sale last night... Somebody stop me before I blow the rent money!

Lee

[brokemoto]

But then I saw a set of DRGW heavyweights for sale last night... Somebody stop me before I blow the rent money!

This means that you will have to look for a C-C D&GRW PA, as well.  The LL plastic frame does not quite qualify as "retro".

The RR steam actually will operate over plastic frog switches. I ran the Pacifics at speed and the Mikados as slow as they would hold over the Atlas plastic frogs for years with no problem.  I even ran the Berkshires over those switches, for the short time that I actually was running RR Berkshires.  I bought them only because some guy had a table at the Greenberg show at the Horsey Palace at the Old Marlboro Raceway and had three of them for fifty bananas apiece new-in-box.

 The RRs with the Mashima motors are, of course, better than those horrid can motors.  Someone sold a five pole conversion armature for that can motor.  I traded my Berkshires for Mikados that had that conversion, and, i did not notice that much of an improvement.  I sold those Mikados.  If you can get a good RR, it is not bad, considering what it is.  The other reason to stay away from the can motor powered version is that it has that old zirmac frame that can turn to dust in your hands.  I had that happen more than once.  Those that did not turn to dust either broke in several pieces in my hands or when they were running.  Never did it happen with one that had the Mashima motor, so, I assume that RR made some changes.

I once even had a RR 2-8-8-0 twist itself into pieces while it was running.  There was a convincing POP! and the thing stopped dead.  C-C was offering to send you a Penn GS-4 for any basket case RR 2-8-8-2/2-8-8-0 and forty bananas at one point.  I kept meaning to send in mine, but never did.  I ended up selling it for the parts.