Model railroad 'ethics'

[peteski]

most all solutions take additional work! 

Yes, but that also means more time needed, which usually is not available during a contest. I also think that no matter what is done, someone will always be able to (and will) break the rules.

[randgust]

One of the (major) reasons I quit the NMRA many years ago was the results from entering regional contests.   The judges were so 'pro HO' that I had one year where I think I won....five second places.    In that contest I had my Hickory Valley diorama, my Heisler, and my Western Railcraft "Mayflower" with the ridiculously detailed interior.    What really hurt was that after the judging I was running the HVRR diorama, and one of the judges came up to me and was astounded that IT RAN.  "well, you never said anything that small actually ran".  The assumption was that N scale couldn't run.  Uh-huh.  That module was pretty much the way you've seen it at Altoona, all scratchbuild structures from historic photos, fully sceniced.   And it came in second behind a 1' x 1' Campbell HO kit building on a piece of plywood with a ballasted piece of snap-track beside it.       And official NMRA judging and point rules were applied, I still have the score sheets.

I realized that the only way I was ever going to qualify for the NMRA achievement awards was if I changed scales, and I wasn't willing to do that, so I've never bothered much with contests since, or the NMRA.   I've been told they've evolved, good for them, but as the only N scaler in the Division at that time, that much still really hasn't changed.   But in many ways that was also a good thing; I decided that if I was going to have fun in the hobby only through competition and contests, it wasn't a hobby.  I also have a couple friends that are MMR's, they've earned it for sure, but again...all HO. 

With the number of custom-builds I've put out there, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see one end up in a contest, but you know what?  I'm not sure it would bother me that much, because if it was that important to that individual to get an award that way, well, I hope they're happy.  They know.

Just don't mess with me on my copyrights though, whole different matter....

[PAL_Houston]

If you buy a classic car, commission a frame-off restoration and then win at the Pebble Beach Concours, who receives the trophy?
Does it go to the car owner or to the restorer?

Or, if you work for a major corporation, your intellectual property is owned by your employer ( in accordance with your employment agreement).
Just sit back and enjoy it.  Or, build a better one!

[milw156]

Is the actual builder aware of this and is he OK with it? Are those that are judging it aware of its genesis?
I don't see where this is any different than turning in a term paper or thesis that you bought. If the judges knew, and awarded the module anyway, I think I would realize this is a contest I do not want to be a part of.

[Maletrain]

In the TRW tradition of drifting long threads, I just have to tell you about a relative who enters his (brewery) employer's home brewing contests.  The employer gives out free home-brewing kits to those who participate, so my home brewing relative sometimes provides "entries" for other staff members with the agreement that they will give him the free equipment to use for himself, afterward.  At one point, the entries he produced came in 5th, 2nd and 1st.  Unfortunately, the 1st was one he gave to another staffer, and he got credit for 2nd.  And, he had personally tasted all of the entries before passing them out.  It's just that the judges had different "tastes" in what they like.  He was happy with the result, and that is really all that mattered to him.

[Tom Todd]

I have a simple position.  If the work is not yours you shouldn't say it is.  Period.
Tom

[arbomambo]

I'm not sure what it's been like in other contests before, but the contest prizes we're soliciting sponsorships and donations for are quite expensive in my personal opinion.
They range from a brand new Scale Trains locomotive (WITH DCC and sound), on the low end, to a complete brand new Kato Olympian Hiawatha passenger car set WITH the FP7-F7B-FP7 power...is that not considered sufficiently expensive?
I recall overhearing this individual 'lamenting' his module (built by another) being 'down for repairs' to its animation (being fixed by the person who built it) and not being available for a layout in a train show that was having contests, because he would not be able to win any more awards and prizes...
The module in question is not a particularly good example of modeling (or even decent modeling) but the subject matter, coupled with the animation make it a crowd pleaser, which, personally I love and will always support! Regardless of the modeling or subject matter, I have no issue with the module being judged and awarded prizes in a module contest. Again, that is NOT the issue I have. As I have maintained, contest judging is subjective, and besides, I don't participate in the contests, but I feel for the others that do.
The issue I have is the individual continuing to use a module, not built by him, not maintained by him, but simply purchased by him, in order to win significant prizes in various module contests, sponsored at various regional train shows. all the while, never thanking, or even acknowledging the builder, in subsequent photos or press about the contest and awards, but allowing the judges, public, etc to believe that it is his in all aspects.
In my opinion, that is morally and ethically WRONG! And, from this point forward, in our official contests, it will be made clear, that all modules, entered in these contests and open to judging will be built by the owners, or individuals showing the module (sometimes modules are entered by proxy). In that case, awards will be mailed to the builder; if this is not acceptable then the module will be disqualified from the judging.
Again, I have ZERO issue with the judging, or the quality of the judging...a poorly modeled crowd pleaser may win over an incredibly detailed gorgeously-modeled module...that's the way of things, and, interestingly, it also helps to include everyone involved. I have no issue with that, but, again, I believe it is completely unethical to 'cheat' the system by buying a module and using it to win prizes for yourself, all the well keeping it well hidden that the module was not built by them.
When we do announce, in preparations for these shows, the new rules, I'm very sure that the folks you mentioned in the quote above- the people with whom they associate, the people that know the work is not his, will have no problem with the new contest rules...
I'll be very interested to see/hear the reaction of the person(s) this affects directly.

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Ahh, well that explains it all.

People want free *****.

Switch over to giving away some ribbons and see how quickly he changes his tune.

It's a shame. One bad apple...

[milw156]

Switch over to giving away some ribbons and see how quickly he changes his tune.

This!
Take the nice stuff and raffle it off to anyone who buys tickets. This is an expensive hobby, and there are always complaints about not getting new people in the hobby. Just think how excited someone would be to win any of the items you mentioned, and how much $$$$ could be raised to buy more ribbons,plaques or trophies.
Again, I think this is a form of plagerism for profit, not just bragging rights.
HOWEVER,  who would/should be responsible for letting other events know who has already won an event if a one-and-done is desired? I like the idea of requiring building info about contest entries. If it is found you lied, you are ineligible for future contests of any category, but again, who should be responsible for collecting and disemminating the info?..
Seems the easiest way to discourage ridiculous examples of cheating is to to what Ed said. Take away the economic rewards that corrupt the process. Some form of cheating would be difficult to eliminate altogether, but if the behavior is not rewarded significantly, and those prizes are significant,  you remove some of the reason to cheat. Now all you have to do is get all of the shows on border with this!
I personally would have a hard time living with myself if I had done what Bruce described, but there are lots of examples in business and sports proving no shortage of people with a moral vacuum. Some of them have bullied those that called them out on it, but it would seem that ignoring it is justifying the behavior.

[Rivet Miscounter]

I'm not sure I have much to add that others haven't already covered, but at least I can add my vote...

• I don't think it is right to claim someone else's work as your own.  Period.
• I don't think it is right to simply buy a module...that you had no input on before and/or after purchase...and submit it for a contest as your work.

If either of the above were happening and I had proof of it, I would directly engage that person about it.   At the end of the day there might not be anything that can be done about it, but I would certainly let them know how I felt about it.   They might tell me to go jump in a lake, and that's fine, but at least they would know my feelings on the matter.  I typically don't fret over things I cannot control--and this would be one of those--but I do think there is value in letting people know when they're "out of bounds".   I do think it is partly a responsibility of the contest rules to address these items too, but again it could be hard to prove.   And, if the person would try that to begin with there probably isn't much that is going to change their mind on the issue.

The issue of submitting a model over and over in the same contest is less cut-and-dry.  It is not something I would personally do over-and-over again, but I also see the viewpoint of "if you want to be the best, you have to beat the best".   Now, that is not stated in an ultra-competitive/"cut-throat" manner, but rather as a motivator for folks to improve their modeling.  (much like The Railwire's "better modeling through peer pressure" attitude)   I like the idea I saw in one of the posts of what I would call a "Legacy Bracket" where prior winners are placed to compete...maybe if they've won three in a row...something like that. (give them a chance at the ever-popular three-pete)   Again, managing that falls to a well-crafted set of contest rules.

The third sort of issue is "combined work".  If someone scratchbuilds a MOW tamper, but I power it, paint it, decal it, and weather it....who gets credit in the contest?  Or back to modules...I designed, built, laid track, wired, but a friend takes it and does masterful scenery.   Well, again, either of us would (should) properly credit the work.   Who wins the prize?   If the work was purchased then the owner would.   If a more general joint effort, well that would have to be figured out...as only friends can. (I would say whomever possesses it at the time and bothers to enter it and fill out the paperwork would be a good litmus test there.)   The contest itself may or may not account of any of this, but I would like to think a good contest would consider a properly credited model to be "whole".

[DKS]

The issue of submitting a model over and over in the same contest is less cut-and-dry.  It is not something I would personally do over-and-over again, but I also see the viewpoint of "if you want to be the best, you have to beat the best".   Now, that is not stated in an ultra-competitive/"cut-throat" manner, but rather as a motivator for folks to improve their modeling...

The problem with "serial winners" is that their entry becomes fixed in many modelers' minds, and when they see it, they automatically vote for it even if there's something better in the contest. That said, some modelers will moan, "Not this one again!" But the former population tends to outnumber the latter. I've experienced this firsthand.

[Hamaker]

I think that in a judged contest, refusing to accept judges decision is not Kosher.  They thought that for some reason, your vehicle deserved it better than your friend.    Instead of refusing, you should have asked what specifically made them choose your car over your friend.

That's what I did....after "confessing" my car didn't have a drop of paint on it....I tried to reason with them that the owner of the Lotus 23c deserved the award as the paint job was flawless and self applied...not a $10,000 commercial job. Given the facts, I asked why would they make such a decision.  They didn't want to listen as it began to be obvious they were embarrassed by their error in judgement.  Neither of us were aware our cars would be judged.  It was overwhelming a hot-rod car show.....and we were even surprised they accepted our entries.  We just thought it would be cool to let the people of Southern Oregon see something besides a stock car or dirt sprint car.

[superchief]

Randy, I am with you when it comes to the NMRA, I have seen the same stuff you have, and once thought about going for the MMR. I have done everything but hand lay track or run a show, But after seeing a person here get that MMR title and knowing said person did not DO all the work, it lessen the title to me. I would rather build my trains/ layout have operating sessions and have friends over to enjoy my trains! I think the NMRA has changes as they see their numbers drop, and I think my case is just that. I do also think that N Scale is looked down on in the NMRA, once in a while you will get that O scale model(you guys STILL model in that scale?). But HO is THE scale, and if you do not model in HO we will just ignore you. Just my two cents.
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