Weekend Update 2/24/19

[Ed Kapuscinski]

Not much modeling this winter(I really need to move to a warmer climate ) for me aside from attempting to decal more PC H43's(you've seen one you've seen them all only the car numbers change). The local LHS is starting up a TTrak club to go along with the Gundam club and plastic kit modelers club. They asked if I would be willing to get on board and help out. After a couple of shots of Jim Beam I figured why not? We spent yesterday cutting and assembling at the shop. Here's my triple in progress. The top still needs attached to square it all up. Now I have to decide what to put on it scenery wise. Yet another distraction from working on my plywood central home layout .

Hell yeah!

[nickelplate759]

I like the GN big-sky-blue stripe-on-stainless-steel scheme.  Did GN ever do that?  If so, got a pointer to a photo?

[diezmon]

I like the GN big-sky-blue stripe-on-stainless-steel scheme.  Did GN ever do that?  If so, got a pointer to a photo?

Sure did.  GN # 1074

[nkalanaga]

According to John F Strauss, Jr, in Four Ways West's "GN Pictorial vol 4", the GN bought four coaches from the Frisco in the mid-60s.  Two were rebuilt as buffet-coaches.  These, and an RDC, were apparently only stainless steel streamlined cars owned by the GN.

I doubt that the GN  owned any UNstreamlined stainless steel passenger cars, either...

[CNR5529]

This weekend was the Copetown RPM meet and fine scale trainshow, in Copetown Ontario. As with other RPM type events, this show is geared towards the craftsman and proto crowd, and usually brings out a lot of skilled modelers and interesting niche vendors. On the Saturday they have tables set up so people can show off their work. This year I was joined once again by fellow N Scale Roadshow club members including @Big Train, to represent N at a show that is traditionally frequented by folks in the larger scales. @craigolio1 joined us in spirit (or in rollingstock?), as he loaned his fab BCOL Diner train, mid 1980s VIA Rail Canadian, and a few other gorgeous models to put on display.

The display we put together was made up entirely of equipment that was kitbashed, scratchbuilt, detailed, weathered, or otherwise customized in some form or another. In addition to Craig's two consists, I brought out my pre-1955 CPR Dominion (the Montreal Section, trains 7/8), with recently completed superdetailed FP9a/FP7a, G class tourist sleepers and Glen Compartment sleeper, as well as smaller branchline CNR passenger and freight trains, including some steam locomotives.
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I also brought a bunch of stand alone models and works in progress to show. Lots of people were interested in your kits @Angus Shops!
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Not to be outdone by Craig's work on the Canadian, I finally installed the lit drumhead on my solarium lounge observation car.
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We wanted to show the larger scale guys what can be done with some nano LEDs and a bit of peer pressure... The gyralites are now fully functional on my CPR F units!
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Later on I was invited to operate on @shark_jj's Grand Trunk Southern layout during the layout tour portion of the RPM, which is always good fun.

[Point353]

Sure did.  GN # 1074

Another version of GN 1074:



Then there are also 1072, 1073 and 1075:
http://rr-fallenflags.org/gn/gn-co1072jpa.jpg
http://www.gn-npjointarchive.org/Lists/GN_Newby_Photos1/DispForm.aspx?ID=1664
http://cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=72209

[nkalanaga]

Interesting.  I never knew that the GN had removed the stainless steel below the windows.  That makes it an even stranger looking car.

[peteski]

Interesting.  I never knew that the GN had removed the stainless steel below the windows.  That makes it an even stranger looking car.

By the same token I didn't know that the stainless steel was just a decorative cladding. I thought it was a structural part of the car's body.

[nscalbitz]

By the same token I didn't know that the stainless steel was just a decorative cladding. I thought it was a structural part of the car's body.

The subject has been covered much on appropriate Groups over the years, such as:

[PCL]
cornelius Seon
01/06/15
All of the cars built by Pullman, ACF, and St. Louis from the introduction of CorTen Steel to the replacement of CorTen by Stainless Steel in structural uses were subject to corrosion issues to varying degrees. New York’s post-WW-2 subway car purchases all demonstrate just how bad CorTen was for vehicles. All of the cars that were purchased from 1948 to 1976 – other than the R-32 cars built by Budd, were subject to the corrosion common to CorTen, which is why all of the subway cars purchased since 1976 have Stainless Steel exclusively in their bodies, and do everything possible to keep moisture out of the shell. The New York MTA has been dumping their CorTen cars into the Atlantic to create a Reef for fish and other beings to have homes.
____


Joe Witcofsky
01/08/09

My understanding is that the problem is due to the Core 10 Steel. PRR
coaches built by Altoona and ACF had similar problems with side and under
frame rot, which precluded the PRR rebuilding surplus P85 long hauls as
corridor coaches in the mid 60's. Ironically, the PRR then purchased PS
stainless 64 seat coaches from the NYC to use in the NE corridor). The core
10 issue is a big reason why Amtrak retained a Heritage fleet largely
composed of Budd built stainless steel cars.
____

Charlie Vlk
01/08/09

The stainless steal sheathing on any car built prior to 1970 (I am not sure about Superliners and other modern stainless steel cars) do not provide a 100% weather tite barrier.
The corrugations on Budd cars are removable.... at least the sides are....rolled sections that are screwed to the structural framework and capped with snap-in covers. 
The problem with the Pullman-Standard cars was that the Stainless Steel and underlying Cor-Ten or regular steel framing set up a galvanic reaction in the presence of moisture which rotted the steel.   Budd cars did not have this problem as their shotwelded framework was also stainless steel and was not subject to deterioation.
I doubt that the P-S rot problem was identified at the time the B&O and IC received cars off of the C&O order..... it was likely an esthetic decision.   The SP and Rock Island wholesale
resheathing of corrugated PS cars with stainless or painted sheet sides occurred much later as far as I know.
---

John Perkowski
01/08/09

In addition to what Charlie wrote, COR-TEN (tm) steel from US Steel
was broadly marketed, but it was an architectural steel.  It was
designed to grow an initial patina of rust, and then stop.

The problem is, unlike buildings, railcars encounter motion ... lots
of motion ... in all three dimensions.

I am told by some that the patina would flake off, and a new layer
would start growing ... and it would flake off, and ... you get my
point.

It wasn't helped by the various galvanic action either

That's the reason much of SP's prewar equipment got the flat
Stainless steel plating in the late 50s and the 60s.

John
in Parkville
____

Hope this clears up the differences,
d

[peteski]

The subject has been covered much on appropriate Groups over the years, such as:

[PCL]
. . . Stainless Steel and underlying Cor-Ten or regular steel framing set up a galvanic reaction in the presence of moisture which rotted the steel.
. . . Budd cars did not have this problem as their shotwelded framework was also stainless steel and was not subject to deterioation.

Interesting - thanks!

[narrowminded]

John Perkowski
01/08/09

In addition to what Charlie wrote, COR-TEN (tm) steel from US Steel
was broadly marketed, but it was an architectural steel.  It was
designed to grow an initial patina of rust, and then stop.

The problem is, unlike buildings, railcars encounter motion ... lots
of motion ... in all three dimensions.

I am told by some that the patina would flake off, and a new layer
would start growing ... and it would flake off, and ... you get my
point.

What you just described is how SS, aluminum, and Cor-Ten all function.  They naturally develop a thin skin of oxide that resists some of the environmental conditions that they've been proven to resist BUT... once abraded, breaking through the thin oxide skin, the whole process starts over.  Because of this, a material that is totally suited to be submerged in a specific corrosive and last an eternity may also very rapidly deteriorate when abrading of the surface is  introduced.  This is an issue I dealt with in industrial piping where a material like a particular SS would receive a total blessing for an application but then in service, failed within weeks or months.  The variable was abrasive materials in the line that kept taking the corrosion resistant oxide skin off, the oxidation repeated, the abrasion continued, etc. 

The description of the failed part's surface was called "honeycombed" due to the honeycomb appearance as the SS material was alloyed with various elements, some of which were independently resistive to the corrosive effects of the material of concern, so being dispersed throughout the alloy's makeup,  would survive while the adjacent material, not resistive, would be eaten away.  It left the material looking like a honeycomb, hence the term.  It could be pretty ugly.  And EXPENSIVE as an oops.

[nkalanaga]

Maybe that's why so many GN cars lasted years in Amtrak service.  They didn't buy "stainless steel" cars, so the side sheathing was probably the same as the structural material.  The closest they came to new stainless steel cars was the Budd domes, which had "slab" siding below the windows, where the corrugated material would have been on a typical SS car.  But, as noted above, Budd cars didn't have the corrosion problems.

Cor-Ten steel makes wonderful bridges, but there the structure sits still, and there's little else for it to react with.  The BN/BNSF Latah Creek Bridge in Spokane is approaching 50 years old with no issues.

Trivia:  The Latah Creek Bridge does NOT cross Latah Creek.  According to official maps, there is no Latah Creek, it's Hangman Creek. 

[Ike the BN Freak]

Trivia:  The Latah Creek Bridge does NOT cross Latah Creek.  According to official maps, there is no Latah Creek, it's Hangman Creek.

Google says its Latah Creek. According to my wife, who was born and raised in Spokane, actually where I met her, it was called Hangman Creek, because they used to hang the natives there, but to be PC, they changed the name to Latah.

She wikipedia'd it, the name hangman came after they hung 17 natives along the creek after a battle/war.  In 1997, USGS maps changed the name to Latah.

[nkalanaga]

Ike:  The USGS finally changed it?  People in Spokane had been trying for years to get it changed, and the federal officials refused.  Some private maps, which could include Google, had shown it as Latah Creek, but nobody could get it officially changed.  It's about time!

Unfortunately, Wikipedia says it is still officially Hangman Creek, but just getting the USGS to change the maps is a victory.  However, if you search for "Hangman Creek", it redirects to "Latah Creek", so Wikipedia also reflects the local desires.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latah_Creek
"Latah Creek (/ˈleɪtə/ LAY-tə), officially known as Hangman Creek,[1] is a large stream in eastern Washington and north central Idaho in the United States. The creek flows northwest from the Rocky Mountains to Spokane, where it empties into the Spokane River."

""Latah" is believed to have been the creek's name for a very long period of time. The name "Hangman" originated from when 17 Palouse Indians were hanged along the creek after a war. Washington State and Spokane County both approve Latah Creek as the official name, while the federal government still identifies the creek is "Hangman". Arguments resulted over whether this name

    ...is too gruesome and bloody a term or it is not politically correct.[1][8]

Other variant names of the creek include Sin-sin-too-ooley, Camas Prairie Creek, Hangmans Creek, Hangman's Creek, Camass Prairie Creek, Hngosmn, Kamas Prairie Creek, Lah-Tah, Lah-taw, Lah-too, Lahtoo, Lartoo, Lau-taw Creek, Lautaw Creek, Ned-Wauld River, Nedlewhauld, Neduald, Nedwhauld River, and Sin-sin-too-aley.[1] "

"By 1959, the US Board on Geographic Names officially changed it to Hangman Creek. In 2001, Washington State proposed that the name be changed to Latah, to no avail.[1][9]"

Basically, everyone except the feds calls it Latah.