Author Topic: CNJ passenger cars?  (Read 874 times)

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crrcoal

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CNJ passenger cars?
« on: December 08, 2018, 08:11:50 PM »
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Other than the Blue Comet, has any manufacturer made CNJ passenger cars such as those used in commuter service?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 08:42:43 PM by crrcoal »

Point353

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2018, 08:52:04 PM »
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Is this what you had in mind?


crrcoal

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2018, 09:44:14 PM »
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No picture showing if you posted one Point353

garethashenden

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2018, 09:47:54 PM »
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No picture showing if you posted one Point353

They did post a picture. It’s the Altas 60’ Passenger car.

Point353

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2018, 10:03:23 PM »
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brokemoto

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2018, 10:18:31 PM »
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Of the cars in that Atlas series, the open deck observation is based on a CNJ car that ran on the Blue Comet.  It is a scrunched up version of the car.  Two of them still exist.  I forget if there were two or three.

There is a guy on FeePay who sells CNJ passenger decals.  He has them for coaches and club cars.  When I bought mine, he did not have any for head end cars.

CNJ ran single window HW coaches.  As of this posting, no manufacturer sells N scale single window HW coachess.  MT has announced one, based on a NYCS seventy eight foot coach.  I do not know what motivated MT to pick a seventy eight foot NYCS coach, as most of theirs were seventy foot and rode on four wheel trucks.

crrcoal

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2018, 10:43:26 PM »
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Thanks guys!

http://rr-fallenflags.org/cnj/cnj-co0584jpa.jpg
http://rr-fallenflags.org/cnj/cnj-co1171akg.jpg

So a reasonable stand in until someday someone makes a correct version?

Point353

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2018, 12:19:42 AM »
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So a reasonable stand in until someday someone makes a correct version?
That would be for you to decide - and you have some time remaining to ponder that question since the cars have yet to ship, according to info on the Atlas website.
https://shop.atlasrr.com/c-1468-n170.aspx
https://shop.atlasrr.com/t-ordership.aspx


https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5605/30791736242_eda09cfa2d_b.jpg

thomasjmdavis

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2018, 10:23:08 AM »
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Of the cars in that Atlas series, the open deck observation is based on a CNJ car that ran on the Blue Comet.  It is a scrunched up version of the car.  Two of them still exist.  I forget if there were two or three.

There is a guy on FeePay who sells CNJ passenger decals.  He has them for coaches and club cars.  When I bought mine, he did not have any for head end cars.

CNJ ran single window HW coaches.  As of this posting, no manufacturer sells N scale single window HW coachess.  MT has announced one, based on a NYCS seventy eight foot coach.  I do not know what motivated MT to pick a seventy eight foot NYCS coach, as most of theirs were seventy foot and rode on four wheel trucks.
I think MT chose the longer coach for 3 reasons-
1) Those are the coaches used commonly in intercity/long distance service and therefore make a better mix with sleepers, diners, observations etc. already in the product line.  The shorter coaches were primarily for suburban or short haul service. 
2) The longer coaches are a close match to those used by several other major railroads, including some western roads.  So they will be good stand ins (at least, closer than anything currently available).
3) Might have more tooling in common with the current paired window coach. Interchangeable roof, for instance, would help keep tooling costs down.

Personally, I will end up with perhaps 6 or more of the 78' single window cars, and would have purchased none if they had been short- nothing against the concept, just don't need any.

That said, coaches in the 68' to 72' range (overall length) were the most common in suburban service, and it still surprises me that no one makes one.  The Athearn blue box coaches were prime examples in HO, and given the sales of those over the years, surprising that no one translated them into N scale.  I have a couple that I got second hand, that are cut down from Lima cars, and look pretty good (although paired window).

Talking about coaches by length gets a bit confusing. What ATSF lists as a 70' coach has 70' between the end posts, 2 vestibules that they did not count in length, and an overall length over buffers of 78' and some inches. I am sure some other roads also used this measuring convention for their coaches.

Another question is why Atlas chose to cut down the CNJ observation, that might well have been more popular had it been an accurate model.  Tooling convenience? Secret polling that reveals there are still N scale modelers out there who want their trains to have matching length cars? But for that matter, why did Atlas choose a 60' prototype instead of a 70' prototype (although I do really appreciate the 60' six window RPO). Had they gone to a 70' +/- coach, they would have a good stand in for suburban cars on a large number of roads.  The 60' steel heavyweight coach is almost unique to the CNW, all the other paint schemes they are doing should be on cars that are 8 to 12 feet longer.
;



Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

brokemoto

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2018, 11:39:12 AM »
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Even most of the NYCS intercity HW coaches were four axle seventy foot cars.  There were some six axle seventy eight foot cars, but those were in the minority.

I do get the part about the other road names that MT no doubt will be hanging on them as well as the part about the tooling.  The rumour mill has it that MT is going to sell four and six axle versions of it.  For my purposes, I want two or three P&LE coaches and two or three Western Maryland, both four axle.  Too bad that no one sells Western Maryland passenger lettering.  The Micro-scale Fireball diesel lettering is close, but is not really correct.  For now, though, it is all that is available.

The only serious and continued efforts at mimicking the Athearn Blue Box in N scale that I have seen has come from Atlas, especially with its "TRAINMAN" Line.  When I was in high school and modelling in HO, the Athearn Blue Box and TYCO steam were high quality, for what I could afford.   The steam was especially frustrating, because USRA types did not work well for an SP modeller.  Fortunately, there was enough older used Varney steam still around that I managed to get enough for my needs.  I had one Aristo-Craft SP Atlantic, that I bought cheap from a friend who was going to O scale. 

LL was getting close to it, especially with its plastic frame FAs, BL-2, PAs and E-units.  Even the metal frame FAs were inexpensive and good quality.  After that, though, LL started to become more expensive when it released its metal frame PAs and Es.

I suspect that Atlas' motivation in scrunching the observation was two fold:

1.  The full sized model might have looked silly with the other short cars.
2.  Introductory layouts often have sharper curves, thus the shorter car will run better on those curves.

What I get out of the TRAINMAN Line is that it is aimed at the introductory level.  It is good quality merchandise at an affordable price.  It is also something of a good enough quality that the purchaser would keep using should he decide to continue and upgrade,  As Atlas has acquired the LL line, perhaps we will see one of the FAs re-appear in the TRAINMAN line as that Mythical Entry Level Cab Unit about which there was more than a little discussion on the old Atlas Forum.  That discussion was more about the "Entry Level F-Unit", which was what you saw many years back when many of us started in HO.  Still, it could be an "Entry Level FA-Unit", instead.  In fact, in the mid-1970s, around the time of the Bi-Centennial, Lionel did offer an HO FA at an "entry level" price.  I do not know if the thing was any good, as I never bought one.  SP did not have FAs.

SP also had only one passenger equipped F-7, an FP-7 originally owned by SSW, which was on its last leg as it worked the SF Peninsula commutes.  Still, that did not stop me from buying Athearn Blue Box SP F-7s.  They had the steam generator stacks, although I am no longer sure if they were FP-7s or just F-7s with steam generator stacks.  Uncle Irv based most of his models on ATSF and SP prototypes, but neither road had regular F-7As with steam generators, except for the one that I mentioned.  ATSF paractice on F-units was that the steam generators were in the B-units.  One of the Grange roads did have regular F-7s equipped for passenger work, but I forget which one it was.

As Atlas does have the blueprints for that CNJ car, perhaps it can make a few keystrokes and offer both that car as well as a CNJ coach in either the TRAINMAN or one of its other lines.  I, too, am surprised that after all these years, no one is offering a four axle suburban coach at an affordable price.  WOT has its Harrimans, but those are a unique design.  As is indicated, the CNWs are unique, as well.

crrcoal

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2018, 05:27:43 PM »
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Hopefully someone steps up and makes one. I think it would sell like hotcakes. Rapido?? Atlas?? MTL?? You guys listening?

thomasjmdavis

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2018, 06:33:29 PM »
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Brokemoto- I don't want to appear argumentative, but after reviewing the Canada Southern NYC site, I am reasonably sure that we are actually talking about the same cars.  NYC measured the inside dimension of the passenger compartment (70'), but that does not include the 2 vestibules- with the vestibules and buffers, overall length is 78" +/- a couple inches.
Tried linking, but having a problem doing that, will try again later.
Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

thomasjmdavis

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2018, 06:38:30 PM »
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http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-PASS2.htm#coaches

It appears NYC used the same definition of a "70' coach" used by ATSF- that is, 70' inside dimension for between the end posts (ie- not counting the diaphragms).
here is an example of a car with 4 wheel trucks 70' ID and 78 overall
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/g-21.jpg

From what is listed on the site, this appears the most common arrangement
Tom D.

"The difference between the difficult and the impossible is that doing the impossible is usually more fun." (my college design professor Russell Whaley)

robertjohndavis

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2018, 09:33:04 PM »
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So far, the only accurate CNJ coaches have been produced in HO scale (Bethlehem Car Works in plastic, a few in brass). It’s ironic given The Blue Comet’s popularity that the train (and it ubiquitous coaches) have not been produced in other scales or as RTR in HO.

Rob

brokemoto

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Re: CNJ passenger cars?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2018, 11:10:18 PM »
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Brokemoto- I don't want to appear argumentative,

I do not take it as "argumentative".  That Canada Southern site is one of the more authoritative on NYCS equipment.  I have used it myself, on more than one occasion.  The last was to get some information on a P&LE baggage/mail.  The Color Guide has a photograph of one similar taken at Mott Haven, but it was an NYC.  It was Pullman Green, which I suspect was also the color of the P&LE car.  Few P&LE passenger cars ever received the Two Tone Grey scheme.  The business car, #99 did, but I can not think of too many others.