Author Topic: Trix Challenger F2 Function  (Read 622 times)

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Jamesn320

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Trix Challenger F2 Function
« on: December 10, 2018, 05:33:45 AM »
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Hi All,

I have a HO Trix Challenger, great loco, but to turn on the sound Trix have set that to F2 which is normally latching as its usually the whistle.  This means you only get chuff sounds when F2 is held in.  JMRI is not picking up the correct decoder so it can't see what the function mapping looks like.  Has anybody managed to change this?

Cheers,

James

peteski

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 04:43:45 PM »
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James, I don't know about H0 models but Minitix uses their own branded decoders (Marklin.Trix/Minitirx).  At least that is what I had in a Minitrix model with a factory-installed sound decoder.  Unfortunately the European sound decoders (and sound  systems) do not follow the same function standards as we do in USA (or possibly other parts of the world).

I found some online manuals for a similar decoder, but it was only available in German language.  I ended up contacting Reynaulds (I bought the model from them) and they hooked me up with their European decoder guru who gave me instruction to manually remap couple of functions (like F2 to F8).

If you are looking for JRMI template for that decoder - good luck!  I wonder if there is a European (or German) JMRI group that would have a template for these decoders?
--- Peteski de Snarkski

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kingj63

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2019, 11:29:01 AM »
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Would it be possible to share the CVs, tasks and values you obtained?
Trying to do the same thing with remapping a couple of keys to get sound activation off F2 to a latching key.
Thanks.  Jeff King

nstars

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 01:20:14 PM »
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I would not be surprised when the Trix loco uses a Doehler & Haass decoder. I would check their website.

Marc

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 08:28:59 PM »
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I was able to get that far.  JMRI confirms it's a Doehler Haass.  That gets me one step closer but not much.  The decoder in the locomotive does not appear in the D&H diagrams and resources.  Likely a one off for Trix or even this type locomotive.
From conversations with familiar decoder manufacturers, they build stuff to specs the manufacturer of the locomotive requests and they know nothing (to quote Sgt Schultz) about the decoder functions, CVs or values.  Seems a bit contrived but I suppose.  Build it and ask no questions???
From the manuals at D&H.  I tried every CV and suggested value for anything that seems a likely fit for the issue at hand. 
Not entirely clear as some of them are in German only.
I was able to write new values no problem.  They just did not do what I wanted.  CV8=8 and try again.
I half suspect there is a gremlin in pay here which is the Selectrix OPS built into these which uses some strange set of parameters for programming.
I am currently exploring options to run the locomotive another way via a system that has a Trix / D&H database in it.  Capable of operating Selectrix as well as conventional DCC.  It's possible if it knows the system parameters it will adjust the F2 key to a latching mode.
The hobby shop I trade with is going to let e borrow a Lok ESU ECoS system and see if that works.
(anyone want to buy a used MRC Prodigy Advance 2 with 2 throttles.... *sigh*)

nstars

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 08:40:14 AM »
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I recently had my first experience with D&H decoders and the motor management is really good. My guess is that the software is similar to the standard decoders. Can you read the values of CV260-265? These give an indication of the software.

Marc
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 08:44:22 AM by nstars »

kingj63

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 12:07:38 PM »
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Probably one of the things which sold me on buying this was how quiet it is.  You almost have to turn sounds on to get any noise out if it at all until a relatively fast speed.  Even then it is comparable with other loks I have at a crawl speed.  The sound is remarkable given I see absolutely no spot where the speaker has any sort of outlet.

OK.  Reading CVs 260-265 as follows.
260=3
261=122
262=  ERR /  can't read
263=3
264=131
265=1

Hopefully that means something to you.
Thanks.
Jeff King

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2019, 01:15:46 PM »
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Ok, these are results which are inconsistent with a Doehler & Haass sound decoder. It could be that a separate sound module is used. Please check the following CV’s: 7, 8 and if they exists CV 900 until 905.

Marc

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2019, 03:44:59 PM »
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Here is the info I obtained to remap the function keys in my Minitrix 16471 (BR78 loco) N scale steam loco.  While it is not the same as your model, maybe it will be helpful.

Marklin/Trix/Minitrix website has a good selection of online manuals.  To find them, I went to https://www.maerklin.de/en/service/instructions-spare-parts/spare-parts-lists/, then under the "Spare Parts Lists" I clicked on "Decoder".  That brings up the decoder manuals.  Maybe you can find yours there.  I didn't seem to find the exact match for mine, but several manuals seemed to show the info I was looking for.
After much searching there I did finally find a comprehensive CV list (including the function remapping CVs).  However when I look there now I don't seem to find that manual in the list.  Direct link to that document is https://www.maerklin.de/fileadmin/media/service/technische_informationen/Umruestdecoder_mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_DCC.pdf, and I'm also attaching my copy to this post for you.


My model's decoder, by default, was using F2 to mute the sound, and I wanted it to be the whistle.  So I wanted to swap  F1 and F2.

Here is the function remapping info I was given by the DCC expert at Reynaulds:

Remapping F1 and F2 (swapping them around so what was on F1 will be on f2 and what was on F2 will be on F1):

You will need to change the following CV's:
read CV's 263 and 363, write down the values.
now read CV's 268 and 368, write down again.
write CV's 263 and 363 with the values of 268 and 368.
write CV's 268 and 368 with the values of 263 and 363.
Now the sound should be switched on with F1 and the sound which was on F1 will be on F2

Going further, now to remap F1 (now set to mute the sound) to F8 (which is used to mute sound on American DCC decoders):

To swap the new F1 sound on with F8, you need to do this:
read CV's 263 and 363, write down the values.
now read CV's 298 and 398, write down again.
write CV's 263 and 363 with the values of 298 and 398.
write CV's 298 and 398 with the values of 263 and 363.

Looking at the 2 examples above, you should be able to figure out how to remap other functions too.  Too bad that the CV list is only available in German language.
--- Peteski de Snarkski

-"Look at me, I'm satirical!!!"
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-"Look at me, I'm a curmudgeon!!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm not negative, just blunt and honest!!!"

kingj63

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 10:06:16 AM »
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First, Thanks to all who are replying.
Second, I can read 3 of the 4 CVs suggested.  Probably an indicator it isn't the same setup.  No good to have 3 of 4 if in fact they are even the correct 4 which they probably aren't.
Third.  My suggestion it is a Doehler Haas decoder comes from two things.  Neither of which is all that solid.  This locomotive is Selectrix capable.  The JMRI program suggested it is a Doehler Haas product.  It's literally all I have at this point.

Fourth.  This is probably the one which actually matters.  Having taken the locomotive to the local hobby shop who has better programming options than I do.  I figured while I was there I may as well show it.  Not everyday people get to see N Scale Trix at this shop which is primarily HO scale customers and definitely not Trix.
To my surprise while using their layout powered by a NCE Power Cab.  The sounds will stay ON when using the F2 key, which is normally non-latching.
Seemingly in play here is the oddity of the Power Cab throttle which has duplicate keys for both Bell, Horn, and Lights.  Shortcuts I guess.  Why?  F keys are already shortcuts.  Whatever.
I have noted in the past when trying other locomotive I purchased there that the latching aspect of either the HORN key or F2 key surfaces from time to time.  In all those cases rather unwanted.  This is probably the extreme instance where F2 as a latching key actually is helpful.
It is a bandage to be sure.  It is however one that works if you can recall that the F keys are simply different on this locomotive.  Bonus there is no need to fiddle with the NCE system itself.  Meaning it reverts back to common ops with other locomotives.  It simply appears to be the way the NCE Power Cab interacts with various decoders.

Yes, I bought  Power Cab.
I do not part with my MRC Prodigy all that well but it has it's advantages.  I just have to get used to something new is all.

Thanks again for the input.  If anyone actually knows more about the locomotive and decoder.  Share away.  Fixing this properly would still be a goal.
For now I can at least run it fully featured.
BY THE WAY...  Yes it is really truly a sweet N scale steam locomotive.  It was actually worth all this hassle.

Jeff King

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2019, 03:28:57 PM »
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Hmm . . . I'm confused (seems to be happening to me lately).

This thread was started with a question about a decoder setup for Trix H0 sound-equipped loco (Challenger).  Where did we switch to an N scale loco?!

If you are trying to remap functions in a Minitrix N scale loco then the procedure I gave you in my previous post will likely work. That way you can have mute function on F8 (which seems to be preferred for that function in USA).

As for NCE, I also own the Power Cab.  Yes, the throttle has 2 ways to control F2. The button labeled "horn" has momentary action, while pressing "2" will have latching action. Remember whether F2 (or any other function) is latching or momentary is determined in the throttle (not in the decoder).
--- Peteski de Snarkski

-"Look at me, I'm satirical!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm anal retentive!!!"
-"Look at me, I have the most posts evahhhh!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm snarky!!!!"
-"Look at me, I have OCD!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm a curmudgeon!!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm not negative, just blunt and honest!!!"

kingj63

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2019, 09:32:43 AM »
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Desperation, plain and simple.
I realize most of the potential downfalls of asking this question to this topic as it started.
I came to the thread via a Google search and joined the board to ask the question.  Coincidentally, the lead question was posted by someone I knew which gave me a back door to the message stream to ask detailed questions outside the group.

That explains why and how.

The rest is just me and how I communicate.  You are not the first person I confused and will not be the last.

I'll leave it at that because any more will just add to the confusion.

While NOT ideal.  It is A solution.
For anyone who has a Trix decoder, likely matters not HO or N, with F2 turning sounds on and off.  Dealing with our western F2 key being non-latching (momentary).
The solution can be DCC system based vs decoder.  NCE, Digitrax, and Lok / ESU all offer one version or another of F2 being Latching.  Arriving at the desired goal of sound on and stays on.

Honestly, I thought that was the real question.
Even as it is not applicable to all users.  It is absolutely applicable to some.
Just trying to help was all.

Jeff K.

peteski

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Re: Trix Challenger F2 Function
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2019, 02:51:00 PM »
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Jeff,
I guess if that Minitrix sound-equipped loco is the only sound-equipped loco you own (or Minitrix locos are the only sound-equipped locos you own), then seeking a solution on the DCC throttle end of things (latching F2), and not remapping the functions on the decoder (remap F2 to  F8) is an acceptable solution. At least that would be how I  see it.

But if someone (like me) owns multiple sound-equipped locos of U.S. prototypes with decoders, where F2 is always the whistle button, and F8  mutes the sound, I really wanted to make the Minitrix loco behave like my other models, so I did the research and found the way to remap them. Standardization is the key here.  I really rather not have to think  about how the functions are laid out differently on very model - DCC and all the sounds and buttons it involves is already complicated enough.

Just like you, I posted the remapping info in this thread, hoping that someone will find it useful in standardizing their sound-equipped locomotive fleet.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 02:54:07 PM by peteski »
--- Peteski de Snarkski

-"Look at me, I'm satirical!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm anal retentive!!!"
-"Look at me, I have the most posts evahhhh!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm snarky!!!!"
-"Look at me, I have OCD!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm a curmudgeon!!!!"
-"Look at me, I'm not negative, just blunt and honest!!!"