Seeking source for ~1" N scale beads and stiff wire.

[DKS]

You can easily get drill bits down to #92.

https://drillbitsunlimited.com/Two-pieces-each-size-87-89-90-91-92-carbide-drill-bits-S1-P2021628.aspx

Note however that these are extremely fragile, and will break if you look at them sideways.

[mmagliaro]

There is such a thing as "microspheres"

[url]http://www.cospheric.com/CPMS_polymer_clear_microspheres_density096.htm/url]

This place has sphere down to 1 um (you would want 300 um, or 0.3mm) diameter.
They have them in stainless, glass, and about a dozen other very exotic materials.  The link above is for
Clear Polyethylene.   10 grams of microspheres in the size: 0.96g/cc 250-300um is   $99.

And if you look at the page, you'll see that you can clearly get them down way smaller than 2" diameter in N Scale.


But there is not going to be a hole in them.
Hmmmm....
Since they are polyethylene, they would melt.  So maybe you could make a jig of sorts, where you have a drilled hole leading to a cavity, where the bead sits.  You insert a stainless wire, apply a hot soldering iron to the end of it, and then press the wire into the bead.  Since 0.3mm is about .011", a .004" stainless wire would work. 

The problem would be actually making such a jig, because you would have to make a .011" cavity with a .004" hole in a block of metal leading to that cavity!

[Maletrain]

Making the jig should not be so terribly hard, because the bead material is so soft.  The jig could be a simple piece of aluminum plate with a hole drilled by a #85 bit only as deep as the bead with a 0.004" ( https://drillbitsunlimited.com/Drill-Sizes-0035-to-037-P5632942.aspx ) drilled hole centered in it and drilled all the way through the piece of aluminum.  Then a polyethylene bead could be captured in the larger part of the hole against a flat surface, and the 0.004" wire inserted into the hole from the other side and either pushed or melted into the bead.  Melting it might even make the resulting "bead end" conform to the drilled hole and look more cylindrical than spherical.

Of course, the wire would then have to be pulled through the hole to get the assembly out of the jig.  So, if you want a bead on both ends of the same wire, then the jig would have to be two blocks of aluminum with the holes lined-up along the crack between them.  Harder to align the holes, but still doable.

But, maybe the beads could be pulled off the wire after they were pierced with the hot wire and it had cooled, so that you would be able to make what you really want - 0.011" beads with 0.004" holes in them.

[SandyEggoJake]

@Maletrain 's jig of a hole packed with bead would indeed be an easy design.  More worried about deflection and cooling and deformation with @mmagliaro idea of boring with a hot rod.  That block of AL would make quite a heat sink to such a small wire, and such would only be useful with a plastic bead.  But such a jig might provide a nice guide for a traditional drill. 

I'm warming to the idea "melting" a ball on the end of a rod, as such might allow a metal ball. 

Jig made as described, but inverted?  Void and jig surface coated with light layer of solder mask?  place SS wire in the 0.004 hole (end kept clean of solder mask)? Pre heat the jig to near melting temp of low temp solder.  Use resistance iron to melt solder on tip of SS wire, using void of jig to form rod side of sphere? Surface tension might form the back side of the ball.  If not, hand file back side?  Pass wire up through jig to release?  Could work for first ball end, but then the ball on the other end would need something different.  Still this is a LOT  more involved than just gluing the ideal 0.3 mm bead.   

Are we over thinking this?  If one drills an array of 0.3mm holes in AL bar, packs holes with a column of say brass ultrafine pen roller balls.  Then zap each column of beads with a frik'n laser?!  Would likely get a bunch of rejects, but is the closest to high throughput as I can think of. 

You know, I have one simple request....a frik'n 0.005" waist laser beam.  Ah, would you remind me what I pay you people for, honestly? Throw me a bone here! What do we have?

 

[Maletrain]

Why use solder to make the end to the wire?  You could probably use the same jig at room temperature with a bit of silicone spray on it and then fill the void with something like resin while a wire was sticking through the hole into the void.  Still only a on-end solution unless you use a split block jig (or is it now a mold?)

[robert3985]

This is for @C855B:

Trackside utility poles and their associated arms & insulators has been something I've been interested in for decades, since they are such a prominent feature alongside U.P. trackage up Weber and Echo Canyons which I am modeling.

As is usual for me, before I get too deep into a major project, I'll find plans or take measurements if I can off of the real structures or objects, because most of the time, when I'm "eyeballing" something and building it, my dimensions are off quite a bit.

Real U.P. poles and crossarms are easy to find, since they still line U.P. mainline up Weber and Echo Canyons, with some of the old poles being fallen over in the grass for easy access to take measurements from.  Most of the time, collectors have stripped off the glass insulators, so they are rare.

After taking measurements of the fallen real poles and crossarms, the next project was finding or making something that would come close to representing the prototype glass insulators on the real thing.

Luckily for me, on one of my annual New Year's Day jackrabbit hunts to our favorite spot near the southern Idaho border, we traveled the old U.P. mainline (less ties and rails) and stopped at a place called Locomotive Springs to wait on the rest of the group.  I got out and was looking around and found several blue-green insulators in the snow and took them home.

They say "Hemingray No. 40" on one side and "Patented May 2 1893" on the other.

They are exactly 4" tall, and have an O.D. at the bottom of 3.625", and 2" at the top.  Inside is a tapered, partially threaded hole that has an I.D. of 2.75" at the bottom and 1.25" up inside the insulator near the top between the threads.

They are an odd, sort of "bell" shape...typical for insulators, but not for anything else, so finding something that correctly represented them in N-scale was going to be impossible.

I thought maybe small glass beads would look okay...even though they are mostly spherical (I thought).  Which prototype measurement should I go with?  The N-scale equivalent of the 4" height (.025") or the N-scale equivalent of the 3.635" largest diameter (.023")? 

I decided maybe I should see if glass beads anywhere near that small were available first.

I found out that roughly spherical "micro seed beads" were available in the right color and transparency, but only "antique" and "vintage" seed beads were small enough, but being "antique" or "vintage" they were not uniform in either diameter or height because they were hand cut.  The "vintage" variety were more uniform however.

Shape and size:  There are two common ways to indicate bead "size" one of them being an "aught" scale, with the smallest available being 24/0 (Pronounced "twenty four aught") and the other being "beads per inch".  24/0 vintage micro seed beads are considered to have a diameter of .91cm, or .038"...which is 6" in N-scale as compared to the 4" prototype height and 3.625 diameter of the real insulators.  However, and oddly, when the size is given in "beads per inch", 24/0 and even larger 22/0 beads are often said to be 40 bpi, or even 50 bpi.  40 bpi (beads per inch) is a height of .025" or a scale 4" in N-scale...just right!   50 bpi is even smaller at .020" or 3.2" in N-scale.

This sizing oddity, and looking closely at photos of the 24/0 micro seed beads is evidence that they are a "flattened spherical" shape...sometimes quite flattened, but always perpendicular to their central hole.

The real deal is a "bell shape" and the beads are a "do-nut" or toroidal shape...some more than others, but just the opposite of the vertically narrower form of the real thing's "bell shape".

Here's a photo of one of the existing utility poles still found along U.P.'s mainline a few years ago.  Notice there are a lot of different appearing insulators on the crossarms, only one transparent blue-green one being like the ones I collected on my jackrabbit hunt.

Photo (1) - Insulator styles and colors on prototype U.P. utility pole:


Looking at this photo, you can see one of the threaded mounting appliances used to attach the insulators to the crossarms.  It's also a weird shape, roughly cylindrical, but the part you can see between the bottom of the insulator and the crossarm is definitely cylindrical.  A good guess on its diameter, using the threaded hole in the bottom of one of my glass insulators is that this visible part is very close to 1.25" in diameter or .008" in N-scale.

On the other hand, the hole through 24/0 micro seed beads is considerably larger than .008".

So, all of this means that if you're gonna use transparent green glass micro seed beads, you'll need to use antique or vintage 24/0 beads.  I found some transparent green glass ones here: http://www.beadcats.com/catalo/seed/baby.htm
These are sold by the "hank" which is twelve ea. 20" strands of beads.  This site has no color photos of their transparent green beads, so you're taking a chance on which color to get.  If it were me, I'd go with the "dark leaf green transparent".

Black would also be another color that's appropriate to mix in with the green, and they're available here: https://www.etsy.com/listing/153124110/vintage-venetian-black-240-glass-micro?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=24/0%20micro%20seed%20beads&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&organic_search_click=1

In my search tonight, I didn't find any clear ones, which would also be appropriate, but you might find some if you continue to look, or call the dealers and ask.

When you search online, use the terms "24/0" or "#24" antique or vintage micro seed beads.

For the mounting wire, I'd use the .007" SS wire I got at Small Parts, but if you can find .008" wire in phosphor bronze, piano wire, or SS...any of them would be okay and prototypical too.

Here's a photo I've posted before, but never in reference to the utility poles in it.  I was happy with the poles, but not happy with the insulators.  Still exponentially better than anything commercially available at the time, but I wasn't happy.

Photo (3) - Scratch built utility poles using blobs of white glue and glossy green paint for insulators:


My next utility pole endeavor was on my friend Nate Goodman's layout at Riverside.  I used N-scale of Nevada kits for these, which were modeled after SP prototype utility poles, with soft metal crossarms and the provided wooden poles.  I went with big blobs of Elmers white glue dyed with some craft stained glass paints...not happy with these either...I think I shoulda used thick gloss medium instead.  And, it's difficult getting the blobs to be uniform in size.

Photo (4) - Utlity poles at Riverside on Nate Goodman's layout:


In conclusion, I'd say that 24/0 micro seed beads would probably work pretty well, notwithstanding their decidedly "not insulator" toroidal shape.  I'd mix black, transparent green and just transparent beads together on the crossarms for added realism.  Secondly, go with .008" wire for insulator supports if possible and maybe even .010" which will be pretty close to prototype appearing proportions.

Finally for myself, I decided to take the bull by the horns and get some crossarms with insulators 3D printed up in clear or clear green...with thicker mounting posts so I could string Berkshire Junction EZ Line if I wanted to.  I'm still working on the 3-D model, but here's what I've got so far...

Photo (2) - Sketchup 3D model of my design for trackside utility pole crossarms:


These are designed to be inserted into holes drilled in my wooden swab-stick poles, with etched NS supports on either side of each arm.

Still not quite 100% happy with the insulator's look...needs to be a bit fatter, but the hardware represented is just like what's on the real deal in Weber/Echo Canyons except for the extra thick and short insulator mounting posts...which I am also reconsidering if I can find a strong enough transparent material to print these with.

Now, gotta find a rapid prototyping place that can print in hi-def with transparent material, and I'll be well on my way to populating my layout with the kind of utility poles I can finally be happy with.
 

Cheerio!
Bob Gilmore

[C855B]

Good stuff, Bob. Thanks!

Your conclusion of 3D printing is in the direction I've been going, as well. Your renderings look good and I agree about the "fatness" of the bell flare. Of course the challenge is finding somebody who can hold the resolution. I have not had much luck with bolt heads, for instance. Speaking of bolts, I'm a little surprised by the pegs - most of the 1:1 I've seen has been threaded wooden pegs. Leave it to UP to over-engineer.

Beads can get the right color and "glint", but you are right about shape, and if I get a wild hair about stringing wires (elastic or otherwise), I think the bead system might be too weak and will work against that idea. As far as transparency, two thoughts: 1) just print clear, the green color can be added with paint or even dye, and dark brown paint for the ceramic style; and 2) once I get over to the craft store on a day they're open (closed Sundays), I have been eyeing pearlescent craft paints as a way to simulate the transparency and glint, even on commercially-produced poles.

[LarryN]

Clover House has tiny beads and wire. Beads are 0.048". Google them, then search for "beads".

[mmagliaro]

Clover House has tiny beads and wire. Beads are 0.048". Google them, then search for "beads".

Those would be about 7-1/2" across in N Scale... too big.

[SandyEggoJake]

Update: Having fun developing a de novo source. 

Have located a source for 0.5mm SS balls, used in ball bearings, but that is ~2x larger than my need.  https://www.lily-bearing.com/stainless-steel-bearings/stainless-steel-balls/0-5mm/

Found one of the top raw material suppliers for the metal ball point pen producers, now helping to locate low cost source of finished bulk spheres.  0.3mm lead free Brass or Nickel Silver both sound great to me.

Found some high though put laser boring guys.  one can do up to 300 bores/ sec down to 0.001".   But would require development of a new handling line - expensive.    This seems to be the gating hurdle. 

But it still bothers me that I've yet to find anyone already producing / using such microbeads in other applications.  At issue is the economics.  If we can find someone with a line already set up for high though put that can be used for bead drilling, we would be much closer to reality. 

So that leads me to think about who might be using such metal micro beads.  Surely, such would find uses elsewhere than just my whimsical wish for n scale hand grip end knobs and stanchions.   micro bearings? 

[Lemosteam]

Not just economics, but economies of scale.  How many customers would these have?  Very few, even if they had to produce only 1000 beads.  The math and effort does not support the sales to the hobbyist IMHO.

By the way, don't you really need a through hole (for the "conduit") and another perpendicular to that ( for the stanchion rod itself) to make a stanchion from wire?

[Maletrain]

Why are we talking about finding metal spheres to model complex shaped glass insulators? Shouldn't we be trying to find green or clear or light purple tinted plastic or glass shapes that could be more easily drilled and otherwise reshaped?

And, if we are talking about custom drilling them, I agree that there should be two holes, one that goes all the way through to string the model "wire" and one that comes only half way through from the bottom to allow the thing to be set on the peg that attaches it to the cross arm.

But realistically, wouldn't it be better to just turn some insulator models to the correct shape, mount them on a cross arm model, and use that as a master to make a mold to cast as many arms as we want with a properly tinted clear resin to match insulators, then paint all of the castings except the insulators with whatever shades of brown or gray we want our poles to be.  Seems a heck of a lot easier and more realistic.  And much more likely to sell in large quantities, so more likely to be manufactured.  In fact, wasn't there already something like that on the market, before?

[peteski]

Why are we talking about finding metal spheres to model complex shaped glass insulators? Shouldn't we be trying to find green or clear or light purple tinted plastic or glass shapes that could be more easily drilled and otherwise reshaped?

In a typical TRW fashion, this thread has evolved. Originally it was about metal stanchions and railings, evolved into glass insulaters, and now we are back to stanchions (I think). 

To be honest I'm still not really sure what those spheres are supposed to be used for. 

[babbo_enzo]

In fact, wasn't there already something like that on the market, before?

I'm sure : yes!
https://www.showcaseminiatures.net/n_scale/n_scale_century_foundry_accessories/
https://www.showcaseminiatures.net/n_scale/n_scale_century_foundry_accessories/521.html

[Maletrain]

In a typical TRW fashion, this thread has evolved. Originally it was about metal stanchions and railings, evolved into glass insulaters, and now we are back to stanchions (I think). 

Well, OK, that answers my question about spheres.  But drilling holes in ball bearings!!!  Still thinking plastic spheres would be a heck of a lot easier to deal with for making stanchions.  And, the 2 holes, one part way through, are still the cost issue.