Author Topic: Extracting sound files from ESU?  (Read 455 times)

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daniel_leavitt2000

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Extracting sound files from ESU?
« on: September 17, 2018, 08:45:34 PM »
0
I was looking at the Zimo sound file structure and it looks fairly straight forward. They are essentially s zip file full of sequential wav files. It wouldn't be hard to make my own sound profile if I can find the sound data bits.

ESU has a file that has templates of ALL their sound files. But they are in a ESUT file format. I tried opening them in various media players and 7Zip and WinRAR with no luck. Does anyone know how to extract the sound files from this format?

There are a few projects that the MX659 would be useful in: my F40PH-2C, as well as some older non-DCC GP7/9s. The small size of the decoder would mean a lot less milling.
You've crossed the walls, excelled
Further along through their hell
All for my heart, I watch you kill
You always have, you always will
Now spread your wings and sail out to me

nstars

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2018, 08:58:41 PM »
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Creating your own sound files for ESU Loksound V4 decoders is of course still possible, but I understand you want to use the sounds from an ESU file. Extracting the sounds from an ESU file is unfortunately not possible anymore. It used to be possible up to the (I believe) 2.60 software but the current files don't support it anymore.

Marc

jdcolombo

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2018, 09:38:38 PM »
+4
I was looking at the Zimo sound file structure and it looks fairly straight forward. They are essentially s zip file full of sequential wav files. It wouldn't be hard to make my own sound profile if I can find the sound data bits.

ESU has a file that has templates of ALL their sound files. But they are in a ESUT file format. I tried opening them in various media players and 7Zip and WinRAR with no luck. Does anyone know how to extract the sound files from this format?

There are a few projects that the MX659 would be useful in: my F40PH-2C, as well as some older non-DCC GP7/9s. The small size of the decoder would mean a lot less milling.

I've got to say that this seems a bit unethical to me if not a violation of copyright law or the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.  ESU has spent a lot of money to record their own sounds and make those recordings into commercially viable sound files.  I don't think folks ought to be using this proprietary data to fashion their own sound files for some other decoder, even if it is technically possible.  If locomotive sounds are available from public domain files, fine.  Or if you record your own, also fine.  But using someone else's data that they paid to develop . . . well, that doesn't seem fine to me.

John C.

lyled1117

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2018, 10:00:54 AM »
+1
Agree with John. ESU started encrypting their files because this was being done to their earlier sound projects. Last time I checked, on the Yahooie site for ESU there was still a file that pulled out the wav files from the earlier projects, it was being done kind of blatantly.

Lyle

Maletrain

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2018, 10:01:47 AM »
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I've got to say that this seems a bit unethical to me if not a violation of copyright law or the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.  ESU has spent a lot of money to record their own sounds and make those recordings into commercially viable sound files.  I don't think folks ought to be using this proprietary data to fashion their own sound files for some other decoder, even if it is technically possible.  If locomotive sounds are available from public domain files, fine.  Or if you record your own, also fine.  But using someone else's data that they paid to develop . . . well, that doesn't seem fine to me.

John C.

John, I see your point.  But, if he is paying for the ESU file or access and uses it only for his own locos, then I don't think that it is really an issue economically for ESU.  The point would be to not compete with ESU to take their business using their own product.  If he wants to mash-up ESU sound and Zimo functions for his own use, I don't see the problem.  On the other hand, the EU has so much bureaucracy that he may be in trouble for just thinking about doing it.

jagged ben

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2018, 10:18:11 AM »
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Hmm.  I guess that puts the kabosh on my idea of tweaking the equalization on the sound files to improve quality.   That sucks.

reinhardtjh

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2018, 10:21:50 AM »
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John, I see your point.  But, if he is paying for the ESU file or access and uses it only for his own locos, then I don't think that it is really an issue economically for ESU.  The point would be to not compete with ESU to take their business using their own product.  If he wants to mash-up ESU sound and Zimo functions for his own use, I don't see the problem.  On the other hand, the EU has so much bureaucracy that he may be in trouble for just thinking about doing it.

ESU does not make you pay for the sound files. they are freely available to be downloaded from the ESU website.  They are, however, encrypted and only usable through the LokSound Programmer software.  Whenever you download a sound file, you have to agree to the "Terms of Use" as listed below.  Most of it is standard but several sections would apply to this situation marked in bold, added by me.


Quote
License Agreement
This license agreement ("the Agreement") is a legal agreement between you and ESU, LLC ("ESU") for the sound samples ("Sound Samples") and software licensed from this internet site ("Content") as well as other content owned by ESU and its third party licensors that also includes images, mixes and documentation. By installing or using the Content, you are agreeing to be bound by the terms of this Agreement. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE GRANTED NO RIGHTS IN RESPECT OF THE CONTENT AND MUST PROMPTLY DELETE THE CONTENT YOU HAVE INSTALLED.

1. GRANT OF LICENSE

1.1 ESU grants you a non-transferable, limited, non-exclusive right to use the Content solely for your own personal purposes. You may load the Content into RAM, as well as installation on a hard disk or other storage device on a single computer, hardware product or mobile device owned by you or under your control. The installation process may result in a copy of the Content residing on your computer, in which case, you may retain one (1) copy of the Content on your computer, provided that you retain all copyright and other proprietary notices on the copy and the copy is kept in your possession with the original.

1.2 By using the Content, you shall not obtain any ownership, copyright, proprietary or other interest in or to the Content. The Content is licensed, not sold.

1.3 You are licensed to use, modify and combine the Sound Samples with sound samples provided by third parties, to create your own sound compositions which, subject to you complying with the terms of this Agreement, you are free to distribute as you wish provided that: (i) the Sound Samples have been mixed together to create an original work; (ii) individual Sound Samples are not used in isolation and (iii) the Sound Samples or derivatives are not used to create sound libraries for distribution to third parties.

2. PROHIBITED USES
Neither you, nor anyone at your direction, shall:

2.1 use the Content, or any part of it, for any public performance, live broadcast or time delayed live broadcast where the Content is used unattended for commercial purposes without ESU' s prior written consent;

2.2 use the Content, or any part of it, in any competitive product;

2.3 sub-license, copy, reproduce, transmit, assign, rent, sell, lease, offer on a pay-per-play basis, distribute for money or any other consideration, or commercially exploit in any other manner or through any medium whatsoever or otherwise transfer in any way the Content or any part thereof;

2.4 manufacture and/or distribute for money or otherwise commercially exploit any product that incorporates any part of the Content. If you wish to use any part of the Content for manufacture, resale, sub-license or further distribution, you must contact ESU (and where relevant, its licensors) to enter into an appropriate agreement with ESU (and, where relevant, its licensors);

2.5 publish the results of any analysis or comparative evaluation of the Content or any part thereof without ESU' s prior written consent;

2.6 reverse engineer, recompile or disassemble any part of the Content except to the extent and in the circumstances expressly permitted by ESU and its licensors in writing or by law;

3. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS
You acknowledge that all intellectual property rights in the Content are and shall remain vested in ESU and its licensors. You undertake not to interfere with or diminish, whether by act or omission, the rights, title and interest in the Content of ESU and its licensors. You may be held responsible by ESU and/or any of its licensors for any infringement of any intellectual property rights in the Content. For the avoidance of doubt, provided that you comply with the terms of this Agreement, ESU shall not claim ownership of the intellectual property rights in any compositions created by your use of the Content.

4. TERM AND TERMINATION
This Agreement is effective from the first date you install the Content. The rights granted to you under this Agreement shall terminate if you fail to abide by its terms. Upon such termination you agree to destroy the Content including any Content stored on the hard disk of any computer under your control. You may terminate this Agreement at any time by destroying or erasing all your copies of the Content. Any termination of this Agreement (howsoever occasioned) shall not affect any accrued rights or liabilities of you or ESU nor shall it affect the coming into force or the continuance in force of the provisions of Clauses 2, 3, 5 and 6 and any provision hereof which is by implication intended to come into or continue in force on or after such termination.

5. NO WARRANTIES
TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, ESU AND ITS LICENSORS PROVIDE THE CONTENT "AS IS" AND ESU EXCLUDES ON BEHALF OF ITSELF AND ITS LICENSORS, ALL CONDITIONS, TERMS, REPRESENTATIONS (OTHER THAN FRAUDULENT REPRESENTATIONS) AND WARRANTIES RELATING TO THE CONTENT, WHETHER IMPOSED BY STATUTE OR BY OPERATION OF LAW OR OTHERWISE, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. NEITHER ESU NOR ITS LICENSORS WARRANT THAT THE OPERATION OF THE CONTENT WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED, ERROR FREE, VIRUS FREE OR MEET YOUR SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS. YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION.

6. ESU's LIABILITY
Neither ESU nor its licensors shall have any liability to you for any loss or damage caused directly or indirectly in connection with the Content, any part thereof or this Agreement, except to the extent that such liability cannot be lawfully excluded. In any case, neither ESU nor its licensors shall be liable for any loss of business, data, profits, savings, or any other special, incidental, consequential, indirect or economic loss whatsoever even if such losses were contemplated at the date of this Agreement.

7. GENERAL
7.1 You acknowledge that damages alone might be insufficient remedy for any breach of the terms of this Agreement and that the remedies of injunction, specific performance or other equitable relief would be suitable remedies in the event of any breach or threatened breach of this Agreement.
7.2 You may not assign or otherwise transfer all or any part of this Agreement or the rights granted to you hereunder.
7.3 ESU is not obliged to provide any maintenance, technical support or upgrades to you.
7.4 You agree to comply with all applicable import and export regulations and acknowledge that you have the responsibility for obtaining all necessary licenses to export, re-export, transfer or import the Content.
7.5 This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between you and ESU with respect to the subject matter hereof and supersedes all prior agreements, arrangements and understandings between the parties and constitutes the entire agreement between the parties relating to such subject matter hereof. No addition to or modification of any provision of this Agreement shall be binding upon ESU and you unless made by a written instrument signed by a duly authorized representative of ESU and you.
7.6 No forbearance, delay or indulgence by either party in enforcing the provisions of this Agreement shall prejudice or restrict the rights of that party nor shall any waiver of its rights operate as a waiver of any subsequent breach and no right, power or remedy herein conferred upon or reserved for either party is exclusive of any other right, power or remedy available to that party and each such right, power or remedy shall be cumulative.
7.7 Notwithstanding that the whole or any part of any provision of this Agreement may prove to be illegal or unenforceable the other provisions of this Agreement and the remainder of the provision in question shall remain in full force and effect.

If you download the designated file, you agree to be legally bound by the license given above.
John H. Reinhardt
PRRT&HS #8909
C&O HS #11530
N-Trak #7566

reinhardtjh

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2018, 10:27:35 AM »
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Hmm.  I guess that puts the kabosh on my idea of tweaking the equalization on the sound files to improve quality.   That sucks.

Not necessarily.  But it would be work.  You would need  a V4.0 LokSound decoder, not the Select.  I addition you would need the LokProgrammer software.  ESU provides a "LokSound Template Pack"  on the LokProgrammer software download page.  Currently at V1.9 it's a bit out of date but a new version should be coming along "soon".

Quote
Sound library for LokProgrammer 4.4.24 or newer

Language: , Date: 20.09.17, Version: 1.9
Install this collection of sounds, if you want to add further whistles, horns, bells, station announcements or other sounds to the soundprojects we offer. The LokSound Template Pack includes most of the ESU sounds in a easy to use manner. The LokSound Template Pack works for all LokSound V4.0 decoders in combination with the LokProgrammer software from version 4.2.24.

As long as the sound pack has the sounds for the decoder you want to change, you could use those sounds, tweak them and put them in a sound project.  If you had a LokProgrammer or a friend does, you could load the sound back into the decoder.

I have not done it, but I"m pretty sure you can make a copy of the current sound project, load it into the software and then replace the sound pieces you want to tweak.  You would get the same FT features (or not) the original sound project would have.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 10:29:37 AM by reinhardtjh »
John H. Reinhardt
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C&O HS #11530
N-Trak #7566

jdcolombo

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2018, 10:44:25 AM »
+1
Agree with John R.  There is no problem in using ESU's own sound files along with the LokProgrammer to enhance their own sounds for re-loading into their own decoder.  They provide tools to do exactly this.  The problem comes in trying to decrypt and use their data in a sound project for another manufacturer's decoder.  That is specifically prohibited by ESU's license agreement (thanks to John for posting the relevant portions of it) and any attempt to decrypt the data for this purpose almost certainly would be a violation of the DMCA. 

There is a solution to Daniel's problem - the solution is for Zimo to hire their own version of Matt Hermann and get to work on a set of US-prototype sound files that equals ESU's.  That is how market competition should work.

John C.

Maletrain

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2018, 08:12:40 PM »
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Actually, section 1.3 of what John posted does seem to say that you can use the ESU sound files for purposes other than their ESU decoders, so long as you modify them with other content and do not try to sell/distribute them in competition with ESU products or for any sort of profit. 

That said, I do agree that Zimo (and other manufacturers) should do what it takes to compete effectively on the sound parameter, which would help all of us that don't have the time or skills to decrypt and modify ESU files for other uses.

reinhardtjh

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2018, 09:30:35 PM »
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Actually, section 1.3 of what John posted does seem to say that you can use the ESU sound files for purposes other than their ESU decoders, so long as you modify them with other content and do not try to sell/distribute them in competition with ESU products or for any sort of profit. 

It's probably lawyer-speak but 2.2 seems to pretty much rule out using the sounds in anybody else's decoders.  Yet, 1.3 does seem to allow it.  I don't know if 2.2 trumps 1.3 because it comes later in the agreement or if it has no effect.  That's what the IP lawyers get paid for, I suppose.
John H. Reinhardt
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C&O HS #11530
N-Trak #7566

MK

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2018, 10:09:03 PM »
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Isn't John a lawyer?   :D

jdcolombo

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2018, 10:42:42 PM »
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I am a lawyer, but I'm not an IP expert.  Nevertheless, Section 1.3 specifically is limited to actions "complying with the terms of this agreement" and Section 2.2 appears to absolutely prohibit the use of a sound project in a competitor's product.  Or put another way, Section 2.2 "overrides" Section 1.3 with respect to using ESU's data in a competitor's project.  As a result,  I'm fairly confident from the structure of the agreement that taking and ESU sound file, "deconstructing" it, and using the sound samples to create your own file for a Zimo decoder is a violation of the agreement and a violation of the DMCA.

But for me, this isn't just about the legalities of the situation.  I just think it is wrong to appropriate data paid for by someone else for a commercial product they developed to use in a competing product because you don't really like the competing product's data.  The world isn't, or shouldn't be, just about what one "can get away with" legally.  It should also be about ethical behavior in a given circumstance.  Taking another person's work product that they paid for and using it because you don't want to incur the expense or complication of developing your own work product is just ethically wrong in my book. 

That's my view.  YMMV.

John C.






daniel_leavitt2000

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2018, 10:52:37 PM »
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OK guys, thanks for the whipping. I was curious if this was an unprotected file format. My view is if a company dosen't protect their work, then it's free to use. A perfect example was Tangent Models not walling off their online photo database. [This has since been corrected BTW]

Onto the next question then. Is there a repository of sounds out there?

It is really unfortunate that there isn't a standard out there for DCC sound management. Imagine being able to use your favorite sound authors with your choice of decoder, programed by your choice of programing hardware/software.

You've crossed the walls, excelled
Further along through their hell
All for my heart, I watch you kill
You always have, you always will
Now spread your wings and sail out to me

Maletrain

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Re: Extracting sound files from ESU?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2018, 11:21:53 AM »
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Just to kick the dead horse one more time: I think that lawyers can argue forever over what lawyers meant when they wrote something - after all, lawyers make their money by arguing. :facepalm:  However, the argument on this one would be what was meant by "competitive product".  So long as the Zimo decoder with ESU-derived sound files is not sold as such, it is not competing with sales of other ESU decoders in the market, so I (a non-lawyer who is a prospective juror) would give what Daniel wants to do a "pass".  It really isn't different from using parts of 2 different physical models in a kit-bashing project, so long as it is a one-off process that is not produced in multiples and sold in competition with either original product.  A lot of companies make money by selling things that are being bought specifically to kit-bash.  I know that ESU spends money to make its sound files and then makes them available for free with the intent of having them used on their own decoders, making their decoders "better" than a competitor's decoder because the competitor does not have such good sound.  And, competitors may try to sell theirs on the basis of other parameters such as size or motor control or more functions.  That is a competitive choice that each makes.  And, ESU is capable of charging for its sound files when they provide them to individuals or license them to other manufacturers.  So, if they find there is a stand-alone market for the sound files, they have a readily available means to profit directly from that - charge for the files.

I agree that it would be nice if there was an industry standard that makes things readily interchangeable.  But, the industry has to make that happen, and they may choose to do it or not, based on how they think that will affect their profitability.  Typically there is an innovative phase where there are multiple new and incompatible mechanisms for doing something being championed by several different innovators.  That usually gives way to the market deciding something is best done a certain way, and everybody switching to that.  It might require a time period for copyrights or patents to expire, or it may be done sooner by agreements of various types. 

But, by the time it happens, typically some other thing is being rapidly developed and their is still not uniform interchangeability in the associated consumer products.  They used to call this "future shock", but now we call it "business as usual."