ST C39-8 and PS 4785 hopper pushed back

[ridinshotgun]

The problem with that idea is that I have never seen any Chinese designed and manufactured model trains to snap together without glue like Kato models. There usually is a fair amount  of glue involved (and unlike Kato, the parts fit isn't perfect).  Also, there is a strong trend for producing super-detailed models, with all those free standing details - a snap-together model would have to be simplified like Katos are (which might not entice many modelers).  Personally, I like the kit idea myself, but IMO it is a pipe dream.

Why would it be a pipe dream?  Scaletrains already sells an HO kit of the Evan 5100 box.

https://www.scaletrains.com/collections/ho-evans-usre-5100-rbl-8-double-plug-door-boxcar

Granted it doesn't have the detail that is demanded by some around this place but it appears to be selling for them.

I actually wouldn't mind some kits especially post transition era boxes.

[peteski]

Why would it be a pipe dream?  Scaletrains already sells an HO kit of the Evan 5100 box.

https://www.scaletrains.com/collections/ho-evans-usre-5100-rbl-8-double-plug-door-boxcar

Granted it doesn't have the detail that is demanded by some around this place but it appears to be selling for them.

I actually wouldn't mind some kits especially post transition era boxes.

Like I said, I too would love to see some well-designed N scale loco or rolling stock kits. We can wait and see, but I don't see it happening. But I wouldn't mind being surprised. Also, you can't compare H0 and N scale modelers - they have different wants and needs (and I say this as a N-scaler).  What works well for H0 might not in N.

[ridinshotgun]

Like I said, I too would love to see some well-designed N scale loco or rolling stock kits. We can wait and see, but I don't see it happening. But I wouldn't mind being surprised. Also, you can't compare H0 and N scale modelers - they have different wants and needs (and I say this as a N-scaler).  What works well for H0 might not in N.

I was kind of perplexed with ST because they offer most of their HO cars in both the Operator and Rivet Counter series,  With Operator being less detailed and less expensive. 

I kind of wondered why they didn't do that with the n scale line.  I think they might have sold a good bit more of the operator series at a lower price point especially since a lot of the fine n scale details are very fragile and from a distance are hard to even make out.  I kind of think they took the pulse of a few forums which really only represent a small fraction of the actual market many who never ever venture to places like this.

[nscalbitz]

SO now is the time to correct, yet again, an inaccurate subject line as the emphasis isn't required, per the horse's mouth has spoken.
?? 

[GaryHinshaw]

SO now is the time to correct, yet again, an inaccurate subject line as the emphasis isn't required, per the horse's mouth has spoken.
?? 

Good point.  Done.

[scaletrains]

I was kind of perplexed with ST because they offer most of their HO cars in both the Operator and Rivet Counter series,  With Operator being less detailed and less expensive. 

I kind of wondered why they didn't do that with the n scale line.  I think they might have sold a good bit more of the operator series at a lower price point especially since a lot of the fine n scale details are very fragile and from a distance are hard to even make out.  I kind of think they took the pulse of a few forums which really only represent a small fraction of the actual market many who never ever venture to places like this.

@ridinshotgun: you bring-up an interesting topic.  When we started the N Scale Tier 4 GEVO project, we discussed the possibility of offering both an Operator and Rivet Counter version.  We even went as far as having the tooling quoted.  At the time, there would not have been enough of a cost separation between the two detail levels to be able to offer two significantly different price points.

Based upon feedback we've received this summer, we're investigating the possibility of offering an Operator version again.  With the level of accuracy for roadname and road number specific details, lighting effects, tooling cost, lower sales, etc., our N Scale Rivet Counter locomotive price points will be increasing sooner than later.  This means the pricing gap between Operator and Rivet Counter may be justifiable.

So here's a question for everyone... if we offered an Operator diesel locomotive, would you prefer (1) the grab irons, coupler cut levers, MU hoses, train line hose, etc. be molded-on the body or (2) holes pre-drilled in the body and a detail kit available separately (like the HO counterpart)?

Thanks,

Shane


Shane Wilson
President
ScaleTrains.com, Inc.

[Englewood]

Molded on, definately. I tend not to add the details when they're included, such as the FVM Gevos. My Kato power looks fine with molded on details. Doesn't keep me up at night.
And I would buy fantasy schemes, too. Specifically Southern Pacific or silver and red Santa Fe Warbonnets.

Thank you for asking!

[jereising]

Pre drilled. 

I have a large fleet of FVM locos and they don't hit the layout until they have been detailed.  I'm slowly eliminating Kato from the layout since they look shabby by comparison.

[GaryHinshaw]

I would prefer pre-drilled.  I might even prefer that to the Rivet Counter line if the basic body tooling were otherwise comparable.

[sundowner]

Molded on, I barely have enough time to play with my trains so I rather do other things to my layout that mounting little detail that it’s already molded on like Atlas or Kato. Having said that, I love the details of my T4 and Big Blows

[Scottl]

The rivet-counter T4 units were so good I can't imagine reducing the details to save a few dollars.  I just discovered the DPU mode on my CN units... wow.  You are a niche manufacturer so I don't think you want to emulate the Atlas and Kato models with less detailing or separate tooling with cast on grabs, etc..  I would prefer to see the rivet counter locos and leave it at that to keep things simple.  Focus efforts on developing new products.  The fact that you sell a DC version is already a very positive nod to folk who don't want DCC or sound, but is obviously easier than tooling to accomplish.  IMHO, of course.

And while I'm at it, focus on models that will sell well and in large numbers.  Well cars (53') would be a natural, as would some of the other items mentioned in this thread.  Give lots of people a reason to buy product and ways to easily generate revenue with paint schemes and volume. 

[peteski]

@ridinshotgun: you bring-up an interesting topic.  When we started the N Scale Tier 4 GEVO project, we discussed the possibility of offering both an Operator and Rivet Counter version.  We even went as far as having the tooling quoted.  At the time, there would not have been enough of a cost separation between the two detail levels to be able to offer two significantly different price points.
. . .
So here's a question for everyone... if we offered an Operator diesel locomotive, would you prefer (1) the grab irons, coupler cut levers, MU hoses, train line hose, etc. be molded-on the body or (2) holes pre-drilled in the body and a detail kit available separately (like the HO counterpart)?

Thanks,

Shane


Shane Wilson
President
ScaleTrains.com, Inc.

Shane, it is good of you (and very smart) to solicit opinions about this.  Good to see companies using some first-hand input (even if it is a small select group of modelers).

So you presented 2 options.  Can you give us an idea of roughly how much less expensive each option would be compared to the Rivet Counter version?  I think that would make it easier to decide.

1.  Molded-on details.  That version would save about an hour of time in Chinese factory labor (which I roughly estimate is the amount of time needed  for drilling and installing the detail parts).  But since  it is separate tooling, the initial cost is much, much higher than the other options.
But this type of model would fit right in with many other models from other manufacturers which also have molded-in details (like Kato, Atlas, etc.).  I woudl say that at this time many layout owners who own large fleets of models would welcome thus type  of model, Just take it out of the box and put it on the layout. It will also blend in with their existing  fleet of locos.  So how would the cost of this  model compare to a Rivet Counter version?

2. Pre-drilled model with separately available detail pack?  It makes no sense to me.  If you buy just the model, you have a detail-free model with bunch of holes in the shell. Not usable as-bought.  So you practically force the modeler to by the detail pack to have presentable model?  So here again, the savings is about hour's worth of factory assembly time.  Well, the holes are drilled at the factory, so that probably takes 10-15 minutes per model.
Buying just the model doesn't seem feasible. So how  much of a price difference would there be between the model+parts pack vs. Rivet Counter version?

2b. Some people suggested selling un-drilled Rivet Counter shell.  That doesn't make sense to me either.  The model (like some recent Bachmann offerings) will look bare and weird sitting among other models with molded-on details.  Why would anyone want to buy that?  If they want to add their own free standing details, then your option 2 would be abetter choice. While saving some money, with about an hour's worth of their modeling time, they could end up with a super-detailed model using factory details.

To me option 1 seems to make  most sense, but probably due to new tooling required, it wouldn't offer much savings.  But i really think it would be welcome by modelers with large fleets of locos with similar level of detail (which IMO is the majority of N scale modelers).  Unlike this forum, where we have a high concentration of rivet counters.    As I see it, most layout owners (especially modelers who run operating sessions) want models ready-to-run, and also sturdy enough to withstand the handling which occurs during regular operating sessions. They run and handle their models, not have them sitting in a sealed display case.

[greenwizard88]

So here's a question for everyone... if we offered an Operator diesel locomotive, would you prefer (1) the grab irons, coupler cut levers, MU hoses, train line hose, etc. be molded-on the body or (2) holes pre-drilled in the body and a detail kit available separately (like the HO counterpart)?

Thanks,

Shane


Shane Wilson
President
ScaleTrains.com, Inc.

Shane, I'd definitely prefer the molded on details like Kato. I dislike the pilot hole approach like FVM does. I'd also appreciate if you to offered a compatible speaker as a separate part, so I can eventually replace the DCC decoder with a DCC+Sound decoder, if necessary, and not have to play guess-that-speaker.

Why would it be a pipe dream?  Scaletrains already sells an HO kit of the Evan 5100 box.

https://www.scaletrains.com/collections/ho-evans-usre-5100-rbl-8-double-plug-door-boxcar

Granted it doesn't have the detail that is demanded by some around this place but it appears to be selling for them.

I actually wouldn't mind some kits especially post transition era boxes.

A wheel is 3 pieces that have to be assembled at a factory. Couplers are two pieces plus a spring. Boxcars are blocks that need multiple layers of paint on them. When you're already paying for so much labor, adding grabs isn't that much more, from a production standpoint, and will up your ASP by $10 or more. Simply put, ST makes more money catering to the low volume high end. At least, that's how Rapido explains it for HO. I suspect that, since N scale is smaller and we can afford enough house to have space for multiples of items, they might benefit from a lower priced high volume item, but that's just a guess. Traditionally, whenever a manufacturer gets asked about kits, the rep get all dreamy-eyed, say that they'd love to, but that they never sell, and that's that.

The problem with that idea is that I have never seen any Chinese designed and manufactured model trains to snap together without glue like Kato models. There usually is a fair amount  of glue involved (and unlike Kato, the parts fit isn't perfect).  Also, there is a strong trend for producing super-detailed models, with all those free standing details - a snap-together model would have to be simplified like Katos are (which might not entice many modelers).  Personally, I like the kit idea myself, but IMO it is a pipe dream.

When you have a Chinese factory tool up the model, as well as assemble it, isn't that like asking the fox to guard the henhouse?

[peteski]

When you have a Chinese factory tool up the model, as well as assemble it, isn't that like asking the fox to guard the henhouse?

Well, to a point.  The American company does have some say about the design, although it seems that they give the Chinese designers lots of leeway in the design.

If I was the person providing the design directions I would instruct the Chinese designers to use more proven designs which produce well-running models using simple mechanism with minimal parts count and preferable no wires. Um, more Kato-like.    For some reason the Chinese designers are hell bent on trying to do their own thing instead of something that has been already done and what works very well.

[ridinshotgun]

Shane, it is good of you (and very smart) to solicit opinions about this.  Good to see companies using some first-hand input (even if it is a small select group of modelers).

So you presented 2 options.  Can you give us an idea of roughly how much less expensive each option would be compared to the Rivet Counter version?  I think that would make it easier to decide.

1.  Molded-on details.  That version would save about an hour of time in Chinese factory labor (which I roughly estimate is the amount of time needed  for drilling and installing the detail parts).  But since  it is separate tooling, the initial cost is much, much higher than the other options.
But this type of model would fit right in with many other models from other manufacturers which also have molded-in details (like Kato, Atlas, etc.).  I woudl say that at this time many layout owners who own large fleets of models would welcome thus type  of model, Just take it out of the box and put it on the layout. It will also blend in with their existing  fleet of locos.  So how would the cost of this  model compare to a Rivet Counter version?

2. Pre-drilled model with separately available detail pack?  It makes no sense to me.  If you buy just the model, you have a detail-free model with bunch of holes in the shell. Not usable as-bought.  So you practically force the modeler to by the detail pack to have presentable model?  So here again, the savings is about hour's worth of factory assembly time.  Well, the holes are drilled at the factory, so that probably takes 10-15 minutes per model.
Buying just the model doesn't seem feasible. So how  much of a price difference would there be between the model+parts pack vs. Rivet Counter version?

2b. Some people suggested selling un-drilled Rivet Counter shell.  That doesn't make sense to me either.  The model (like some recent Bachmann offerings) will look bare and weird sitting among other models with molded-on details.  Why would anyone want to buy that?  If they want to add their own free standing details, then your option 2 would be abetter choice. While saving some money, with about an hour's worth of their modeling time, they could end up with a super-detailed model using factory details.

To me option 1 seems to make  most sense, but probably due to new tooling required, it wouldn't offer much savings.  But i really think it would be welcome by modelers with large fleets of locos with similar level of detail (which IMO is the majority of N scale modelers).  Unlike this forum, where we have a high concentration of rivet counters.    As I see it, most layout owners (especially modelers who run operating sessions) want models ready-to-run, and also sturdy enough to withstand the handling which occurs during regular operating sessions. They run and handle their models, not have them sitting in a sealed display case.

@scaletrains thanks for looking for and taking our pulse so to speak, but I do caution that this is a small fickle group that might not be a way to test which way the wind blows.  No knock to my fellow 

Peteski beat to it and pretty well sums up what I would have said. 

And this is coming from someone that really likes detail but I find it bothersome that I lose it or break it with constant handling going into and out of the box at shows.  I have had to do constant repairs on my carbon black cars to keep the parts on and the car running.  And it isn't just those because I have the same problems with other cars such as my IM modern reefers.  None of my FVM locos have had the details applied because of this.

And truthfully my ntrak club has about 20 active members, none of who post here, and most are of the same opinion.