Author Topic: Need help with passenger car lighting  (Read 4245 times)

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narrowminded

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2018, 12:55:59 AM »
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Does anybody have a source for the latching reed switches as an individual component? 

Could be a handy item for making custom boards and for applications beyond passenger car lighting.
Mark G.

mmagliaro

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 06:39:59 AM »
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Does anybody have a source for the latching reed switches as an individual component? 

Could be a handy item for making custom boards and for applications beyond passenger car lighting.

It's not a latching reed switch.  It's a regular reed switch.  They use a flip-flop (I assume, from the presence of the tiny
IC chip on there)  to "latch" the power on when the reed switch is momentarily closed - and then switch the power off when it is closed again.  You can confirm this on the Easy Peasy boards by just bridging a clip lead across the reed switch briefly.  The lights will come on and stay on after you remove the clip lead.  The reed switch does not stay closed.

As to your actual question  :)   latching reed switches are tough to find.  I used to see them pop up from the old surplus house, Hosfelt Electronics (now out of business) many years ago, but I haven't seen one in years.

craigolio1

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 07:11:46 AM »
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I wondered the same a while back and was unable to find any that were small enough for what we woukd want. Not saying they don’t exist. Just that I couldn’t find them.

peteski

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2018, 04:10:53 PM »
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Bruce,
I have "reverse engineered" one of those new Rapido light boards. As mentioned, they sue regular SPST normally-open reed switch and a small chip (integrated circuit) to toggle the lights on and off.  The white LEDs are divided into 3 groups of 2 parallel-connected LEDs, each group with a 100 ohm series-connected resistor.  The batteries are series-connected and when fresh produce 1.55V * 2 = 3.1V 

Your goal is to add one more LED to that circuit. You couldn't get the white LED (with a series-connected resistor) to light up.  What value was the resistor?  Without getting too technical, different white LEDs require slightly different voltages. They also do not behave the same as light bulbs. While the LEDs used on the Rapido board will light up with less than 3V, other white LEDs need higher voltage. It is possible that the LED you tried needs more than the voltage produced by 2 batteries.

Is the marker light supposed to be red or white?  If it is red then you can get a red LED which only needs 2V to glow brightly.  If you get an efficient high-brightness red LED, then you should have no problem powering it from the Rapido board (with a series-connected resistor of course).

I'm not a fan of battery-powered car lighting (especially ones using small batteries).  One of my many projects is to write a magazine article on how to add anti-flicker circuit and power these boards form the track and also add a tiny adjustable resistor to control the brightness.  I just have to finish it and send it in . . .  :facepalm:
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 04:31:54 PM by peteski »
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mmagliaro

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2018, 04:29:40 PM »
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Yes... to eliminate any confusion by trying to power a white LED from the coin cells, I would suggest rigging up a 3v source (just two AA batteries, for example), and make sure your white LED will light with a resistor on those.  That will eliminate any weird possibility that you are touching your LED to a good spot on the Rapido board, but not getting light because 3v isn't enough.

As you could see from my photo example, a white LED can be made to work here (I used a 220 ohm resistor, but that was just the first thing that "seemed like a good one to try" that I found in my parts box).

BruceG

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2018, 11:09:26 AM »
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Actually, it’s a 3v red led. A “touch test” showed that the spot Max suggested on the first resistor is good, with the other wire going to the spot where the last LED connects to the common trace.  So no scraping down to a trace. I’ll wait till I go to our club on Saturday to do the soldering. I don’t have a fine point soldering tip here at home.

Thanks to Max and @peteski for your  input. I’ll post the result when complete.

Bruce

mmagliaro

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2018, 12:51:11 PM »
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Glad to hear it, Bruce.

But can you follow the trace from that one surface mount resistor lead, and find a more convenient place to tap it?  I really only pointed out soldering it right at the resistor point because I can't see any more detail of the traces in the photo.  If you could find a different spot further back from where the actual surface mount resistor is, that would be much better.

randgust

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2018, 03:56:44 PM »
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Years ago Radio Shack had tiny reed switches, and I had a collection on an abortive attempt to automate a reverse loop circuit.

I broke one of the reed switches on an Easy-Peasy and successfully transplanted one of the Radio Shacks to it.

It looked like this, anyway:  https://www.kr4.us/reed-switch.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi7SBvM3H3AIVS7jACh1emQVnEAQYBSABEgJzjPD_BwE

The only thing you have to worry about is if you can make it fit and if you can trip it with the same magnet through the car roof.

mmagliaro

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2018, 04:40:16 PM »
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Yes, conventional reed switches are common and easy to find.  The latching ones are the "odd ducks".
Since Randy brought up replacing reed switches, I thought I'd pass along some tips.

The metal leads go into a sealed glass tube.  If you damage that seal in any way, the reed switch will be ruined.

So when you cut or bend the leads, ALWAYS grip the lead near the glass with needlenose pliers so that when you cut or bend, on the OPPOSITE SIDE of the pliers, there is no stress on the seal where the lead enters the glass tube.

Soldering requires the same precautions.  Clip on a heat sink near the glass tube or hold the lead near the glass tube with pliers while you solder on the opposite side of the pliers.  If the lead-to-glass seal heats up, it will be ruined.

peteski

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2018, 05:47:13 PM »
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Actually, it’s a 3v red led. A “touch test” showed that the spot Max suggested on the first resistor is good, with the other wire going to the spot where the last LED connects to the common trace.  So no scraping down to a trace. I’ll wait till I go to our club on Saturday to do the soldering. I don’t have a fine point soldering tip here at home.

Thanks to Max and @peteski for your  input. I’ll post the result when complete.

Bruce

Sounds like you have a good plan in place.

As far as the red LEDs go, I have been dealing with thousands of LEDs over the last 40 years or so and I have never encountered a red LED which would need 3V to operate.  All the ones I worked with need around 1.7 - 2.1 Volts.  However I also see lots of incorrect LED ratings being provided with them (especially on eBay).  I'm also curious and always willing to learn something.  Do you by chance have any more info about that 3V red LED?  Like where you bought it and what are its other ratings?  If that LED included a series-connected resistor, I wonder of the 3V rating was given for the LED-resistor combo?  Do you know the value of the resistor (or its color codes)?
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BruceG

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2018, 06:22:11 PM »
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The tiny red LED was given to me by a fellow club member. I believe he bought a large lot of them on eBay. It did not come with a resistor, and works with a pair of AAA’s, with or without a resistor.  Strangely, it works on the E-P unit with the arrangement Max suggested, but only with the resistor lead attached to the common trace side, not to the board-mounted resistor side.  It also dims all of the other LED’s.  I’m a novice at electronics, and obviously in over my head.

Bruce

mmagliaro

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2018, 03:32:46 PM »
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The tiny red LED was given to me by a fellow club member. I believe he bought a large lot of them on eBay. It did not come with a resistor, and works with a pair of AAA’s, with or without a resistor.  Strangely, it works on the E-P unit with the arrangement Max suggested, but only with the resistor lead attached to the common trace side, not to the board-mounted resistor side.  It also dims all of the other LED’s.  I’m a novice at electronics, and obviously in over my head.

Bruce

Then the traces don't go where they "appear" to go when I look at your photos.  Drat.  Dimming and position of the resistor making any difference mean that we don't have the circuit right.

peteski

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2018, 07:23:22 PM »
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Bruce, Max's diagram is correct and the LED should work with the resistor on either the positive or negative side.  Here is a diagram of all the positive and negative pads to which you can solder the extra LED/resistor.



The bottom part shows examples of how the extra red LED can be wired. The green circle will be soldered to any of the green pads on the photo and red circle to any of the red pads on the photo.

If the additional LED is dimming the other LEDs then it might be putting too much load on the batteries (is "sucking" up too much current).

I'm curious about the LED/resistor you are using and I  have proposition for you:  You send me the LED/resistor you are using and I'll send you pre-wired LED/resistor combo which will be guaranteed to work properly.    What car are these going on?  Do you need just one or two red LEDs?

I'll PM you my address.
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BruceG

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2018, 11:52:20 PM »
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I appreciate the offer.  I’ll send out the LED and resistors I’ve been working with tomorrow. It’s going in an MTL heavyweight observation car. I used a piece of tubing for a fixture. Only need one LED/resistor combo. I’ll be interested in your findings about the one I send.

Thanks,  Bruce

peteski

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Re: Need help with passenger car lighting
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2018, 07:09:18 PM »
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Bruce,
The LED came in the mail yesterday.  It was packed in a small clear hobby knife blade holder.  There was also a letter from you, but no resistors.  I don't know if you forgot to pack them or they somehow fell out of the envelope (the envelope did not appear to be damaged).  But since I have no resistors, I can't tell you if they were correct for this application or not.  If you still have them, you can let me know what their markings are to see if they were the correct value.

Anyway, back to the LED.  It is a standard run-of-the-mill SMD (Surface Mount Device) 0402 size orangish-red LED.  The leads are enameled magnet wire (which is often used as leads for SMD LEDs).  I noticed that the wire's insulating enamel coating wasn't stripped well on the end of the leads. I wonder maybe if that was the reason you experienced strange problems when you were hooking the LED up to the batteries?

The first thing I did was to strip the enamel insulation from the wire ends.  Looking back, I should have left it alone and tested it that way, but I just saw what looked like unstripped wire, and as almost a reflex reaction I stripped to make sure it was bare wire.

I strip the enamel by sticking the end of wire to be stripped in paste flux (non-acid paste of course), then I stick it in a ball of molten solder on the tip of my soldering iron. That burns off the enamel and nicely tins the bare copper wire.  But (unless the wire uses a spacial low-temp enamel) the iron has to be quite hot to be able to burn off the enamel.  I crank mine up to 800 degrees F (when I normally use 600-700 temperature for soldering).

I then went onto testing the LED. It worked fine.  As I mentioned, it is a standard red-type of LED and it has a forward voltage of 1.6-1.9 (depending on the current passing through it).  It is not a "3V LED".

The 0402 size LEDs are typically designed to operate at 5mA (but can handle short burst of higher current).  That might explain why it survived being hooked up directly to 3V source of power (2 AA batteries in series) which would have resulted in excessive current passing through the LED.  Maybe when you tested it, you just didn't keep it lit long enough for it to fry.  :)  And no, I didn't try powering it directly from 3V without a resistor.

Next, I  took one of my Rapido passenger cars I bought couple of years ago. The batteries included with it were never installed, so they were fresh (but old). I took the car apart and installed the batteries.  I measured their voltage with the lights off and it was 3.04V (or 1.52V per battery).  When I turned on the lights the voltage dropped to 2.87V and it continued slowly dropping further.  After several minutes the voltage was down to 2.7V.  If the lights are turned off for a while the batteries sort of rejuvenate and the voltage goes up, but you have to remember that these are tiny button cells, likely designed for watches and other circuits which only consume micro Amps of current.
The light board consumes 9mA (1.5mA per each white LED) with fresh batteries (supplying 3V) and as the battery voltage drops, the LED current will drop too (and so will their brightness).
Looking at the LR41 battery specs,  their capacity is between 25-31mAh.  That means theoretically they can supply 25mA of current for 1 hour before they are drained. But of course these tiny batteries aren't designed for such high current, and it would kill them much sooner.
Since the LEDs here consume 9mA, theoretically if the batteries were the low grade 25mAh ones, the battery would last for little bit over 2 hours.  I couldn't find a spec which would give me the voltage the manufacturer considers as "discharged", so the battery longevity in this circuit  is only an estimate.
If you find that you have to replace the batteries too often, try the LR41SW battery (the SW indicates a silver oxide battery (plain LR41 is an alkaline battery).  The SW version has a capacity of 38-44mA (almost double of the alkaline), but they are also more expensive.

Next step was to add the red LED to the E-P (Easy Peasy) board. I calculated a resistor value which would supply the red LED with 2mA of current.  The resistor value was 470 ohms.  I hooked it up to the E-P board and it lit up nice red color and the white LEDs were also glowing brightly.  When I connected and disconnected the red LEDs leads I could see a slight change in brightness of the white LEDs. But between the fact that the batteries were a bit old and also because these tiny batteries cannot provide a lot of current, I expected some change in brightness of the white LEDs when I hooked  up the red LED.

I then tried using higher resistor value for the red LED, to reduce its current (and load on the circuit).  After trying few values I decided that 680 ohm resistor still provides decent brightness of the red LED and its current was down to around 1.4mA. Connecting and disconnecting it from the circuit resulted in minimal change in brightness of the white LEDs.

Here  is photo showing how I  hooked it up.



And a closeup.



As you can see, to simplify the installation I installed the resistor directly on the E-P board by soldering one of its solder pads (near the "6" marking) to the positive voltage copper pad on the board.  That provided electrical and mechanical connection, and eliminates a wire which would have to be used if the resistor was mounted off-board.  Then the positive wire from the LED is soldered to the other pad of that resistor (near the "1" marking) . The negative wire from the LED is soldered to the negative output (on that resistor marked "101"). That's all that is needed for the LED to work.



For clarity, here is the photo of possible hookup points for the LED/resistor combo I posted earlier in the thread.



Here I show the red and white LEDs glowing brightly.

I stained the LED's negative wire using a black Sharpie to make it easier for you to identify.  I'll return the LED along with the 680 ohm resistor shown in the photo back to you so you can install it on your E-P board.   If you rather work with larger resistor with leads, I can also mail you one of those. But the install will not be as clean as the one using the small SMD resistor.
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