BLI F3 and F7

[Maletrain]

The "answer" from BLI is troubling. 

What Mark wrote in his Spookshow review does not stop at the gear mesh issues - there are actual operational problems.  Mark seems to think that those operational problems were caused, at least in part, buy the gear mesh issues.  But, even if BLI is correct that their gears mesh sufficiently to avoid causing any problems, that still does not address the actual operational problems observed by Mark and others.

I have only had a chance to run one of mine around a loop of Kato track on a table, and it seemed to run fine for several minutes.  The only thing odd was that the sounds seemed to indicate speed-up and slow-down when there was no apparent command  or change in running conditions to cause that.  But, trying to watch the loco's actual speed, I was not seeing it actually change speed when the sounds indicated that it should be changing.  I am wondering if the BEMF is causing this effect.  Or possibly voltage sags on the track interacting with the BEMF?  FWIW, I am testing with a Power Cab.

[Mark5]

FWIW, I am testing with a Power Cab.

NCE Power Cab?

[drbnc]

I think it's their BEMF algorithm.  Seems very sensitive, so if your table is even slightly off-level, it'll sense the load change.

[garethashenden]

I think it's their BEMF algorithm.  Seems very sensitive, so if your table is even slightly off-level, it'll sense the load change.

This is something I’ve noticed with the one E7 I have. It’s from an older run, 2014?, but is very sensitive to grade changes.

[Maletrain]

NCE Power Cab?

Yes, does somebody else make a "Power Cab"?

Another annoyance is that there are no instruction manuals included in the boxes, although they did have the money, time and space to put a "choo-choo shoes" add in every box.  Soooo, I went to their website and found that their manual files are in small-page-with-large-print format that will take a gazillion pages to print, with mostly empty space on each page.  It is actually a pdf of the manual format that they should have put in the boxes.

[rrjim1]

The BLI decoder uses BEMF to change the speed/sound of the prime mover. You really notice this when pulling a heavy train up and down a grade. I have always considered this a plus with there decoders.

[peteski]

Is my problem then that I am using NCE with the older firmware? Is that why my Fs are all dead out of the box? Funny, my new Es ran well out of the box. Although my 2 mew C&Os are dead.

Doubtful.  The basic DCC protocol (addressing and running locomotives) has not changed.  The oldest DCC system should be able to control the newest decoder and vice versa.

Did you try them on DC (assuming that DC mode is enabled by default)?  If you don't have a DC throttle, try a fresh 9V battery (touch it to the wheels or put the loco on a piece of standalone track, then touch the battery terminals to the track).  However, since this is a sound decoder, 9V might not be quite enough to get the loco moving.  But try it anyway.

[cgw]

The DCC protocol is fairly common but the algorithms and implementation of the code and the drive electronics are very different. As a result some decoders do not play nice with each other.     NMRA DCC is an off shoot of Dr. Lenz 's protocol.  Digitax, NCE,MRC, and several others  have their own adaptation and interpretation of these protocols.     Just how you code and implement Back emf control varies significantly.     Zimo and ESU have the best adaptive algorithms out there.   Digitrax, NCE are functional yet vey simple and do not perform the same as  the two mentioned previously.      A good example on the differences is to see s how you consist the locomotives.
Every mfg had their own implementation of how to do it and they are not the same.       


 

[cgw]

I also did note that the power cab did doe some wonky behavior with the Pargon 3 decoders.      But I was reluctant to investigate further since I have modified my unit to run at a 10volt level for my zscale dcc stuff.  I do remember that ti read somewhere that the paragon 3 deocoder  should be good from 7 volts to 16 volt range.       

[peteski]

The DCC protocol is fairly common but the algorithms and implementation of the code and the drive electronics are very different. As a result some decoders do not play nice with each other.     NMRA DCC is an off shoot of Dr. Lenz 's protocol.  Digitax, NCE,MRC, and several others  have their own adaptation and interpretation of these protocols.     Just how you code and implement Back emf control varies significantly.     Zimo and ESU have the best adaptive algorithms out there.   Digitrax, NCE are functional yet vey simple and do not perform the same as  the two mentioned previously.      A good example on the differences is to see s how you consist the locomotives.
Every mfg had their own implementation of how to do it and they are not the same.       

Yes, correct. But the basic protocol of the packets sent over the track power is (and should be) compatible across all NMRA DCC platforms (old and new).  I mentioned that in response to a post which pondered if non-operational locomotives were caused by incompatibility.  The answer was (and still is "no").  There are many manufacturer-specific internal implementations of various additional functions and features, but in the end, the decoder will still recognize and respond to packets it sees being delivered from the command station.

I should have been more anally specific in my earlier post.  NMRA DCC standard (which is pretty much what we all use in USA). Bssic speed-step and direction commands. Something that every NMRA compliant DCC command station and decoder from any time period should be able to understand.

[OldEastRR]

"Forget it, Jake. It's only N scale." 

[Maletrain]

cgw posted that his Paragon 3 decoders exhibited "wonky behavior" with some specific DCC command stations, but not with others.  Considering that the "wonkiness" seems to be intermittent, I am questioning whether it is reproducible with those command stations and whether the other command stations that did not exhibit "wonkiness" will eventually show it, too, in some random way.

A fair test would be to set-up 2 test loops, one with a command station on cgw's "wonky list" and one on his "non-wonky list" and run one  locomotive on the supposedly wonky loop until it malfunctions.  When it does, remove it from the track and put it back on the same track.  If the wonkiness has not subsided, then put it on the other loop and see if that cures the problem(s). 

[unittrain]

I had ordered a Pennsy F7A and lucked out, I got a refund, they had just sold the last unit right before I ordered..

[w neal]

Had a nice series of emails with BLi today. They are offering to fix my problem s postage paid.

[cgw]

hi maletrain  that is exactly what I did.   new loop of kato unitrack  ran the engines roundy roundy in one direction did same number of revolutions in the opposite direction and then repeat  several  times  swap out the command station and power supplies repeat till I ran through the list. Then repeated the same test in a different order.  and got the same results.. The wave form on the scope was similar for the higher end command stations,  digitrax bd100 dcs150 and dcs240   were close enough  the dcs51  (zephyr output was not as clean with some spikes)   decided to send that unit back to digitrax to look at it,  The NCE powerhouse pro was similar to the digitrax output and clean.  behaved well.    NCE power cab was a different story  better signal than the DCS51 but worse than the NCE powerhouse pro.   The speedups and slow downs appeared like capacitors charging and discharging in the motor circuit.   this start run stop behavior was very predictable,  like a time constant.      I will be waiting for digitrax repair folks feed back on the zepyhr.    My power cab will be most likely be sent back to NCE for examination.         I do like the engines with their cosmetic flaws and all.    on the higher end command stations they were running like swiss watches.     Took the locos down to the club which tend to have dirty track and it still ran smooth as silk,  im impressed  Club layout  has one dcs240 along with 6 db220 dual boosters.       The bottom line is the paragon 3 appears to be  working as advertised for my systems that I use.  The entry level systems I typically run only z scale with standard small decoders from ct, digitrax, esu, zimo and tcs.  I am not worried about those units.