BLI F3 and F7

[drbnc]

Their decoders sound good, their BEMF is awesome.  As a famous man once said, "it's better to look (and sound) good than to feel (run) good!"  Oh, and "don't look at the F3 grills! They're fine! The prototype has all those grills (just not in that arrangement) mumble mumble."  If they are at the National, maybe someone will call them out.

[MK]

As a famous man once said, "it's better to look (and sound) good than to feel (run) good!"

Fernando from Saturday Night Live!   

[cgw]

After running the following engine sets F3 ABBA,  F7 ABBA, E7 ABBA, E8 AA (all paragon 3 units)  Centipede (paragon 2)  and a E7 ABBA (Loksound 3.5)  for more that 36 hours straight on a simple Kato unitrack oval I cannot find any faults with the performance    Good noise,  Slow speed performance,  Slot car speeds on the high end etc.    Temperature rise in the engines were minimal,  1degree (c)  almost nothing. (measured by a FLIR infrared camera).   Several Command stations were switched out to see if they would make a difference.    Digitrax DB100, DCS150 DC240 no differences were found   no issues (output voltage set and adjusted for 12.5V as measured by an scope).  The NCE power house pro with the 2007 firmware upgrade had no issues.     (also the output was trimmed and set at 12.5V. )    The Merg CBUS command station/Booster  worked with no reportable issues (exception was that the voltage was set at 15v - this system the lowest voltage is at 15 volts for it to work).      The problem children were the Lenz Commander (output voltage is at 16V).     NCE power cab  output set for 10V   and the Digitrax DCS51  output set at 12v.      These three units were able to duplicate the odd behavior that Mark experienced in his engines.     The NCE power cab was set up for a portable z scale lay out I occasionally putz with.     The Lenz unit is a very old setup that is no longer supported so I am not going to worry about that system. (time to send it off to the technological scarp heap)  and the Digitrax unit is perplexing   can't seem to understand what is going on with it.   This one is going to be sent back home for an update and evaluation by tech support.   

Conclusion:   My wife thinks that i am certifiable crazy and should be commited for spending too much time on this.  She hates sound equipped locos most definately and wondered why in Gods name would anyone watch a bunch of toys go round and round on an oval track on the dining room table.    (listening to napoleon singing "they are going to take me away haa ha hee to the funny farm ................... )       The engines run smooth and have great slow speed performance on current DCC equipment for several manufactures,  I would give them an A-    sound quality is acceptable when you turn down the master volume CV133  set down to 16     (solid B   spoiled by loksound 4.0)     prr specific details  B+    on the F3 they get an F   flipped the bloody grill work.      They should recall the units and replace the shell for that fubar.       If this was automotive we would be doing a recall for consumer satisfaction right now!           

interesting note that when I asked some spf  at the train club to tell me whats wrong with the units it took them more that 5 minutes to realize the grill work was flipped.      when you stand way from the layout and run you don't even notice  the defect.    But since it was brought to our attention it sucks considering how much $$ were spent on them.       


Time to put this one to bed and regain some sanity in ones life.     

[peteski]

You have to give them A+ for creative use of electrical tape and bubble wrap right from the factory!  Do we think those were actually part of the design?

As far as side play of the axles is concerned, do we really need *THAT* much side play?  The truck swivels already.  Other manufacturers (using the Kato's truck design) happily manufacture trucks with much less side play in the axles and they work just fine.  I actually prefer even less side play and I press the axle halves out of the wheel slightly.  My models run just fine.

BLI's Centipede has multi-axle trucks with similar design (lots  of side play in each axle), but in those rigid multi-axle trucks having axle side play makes perfect sense. So yes, side play is needed os rigid 4-axle truck, but not so much on a short 2-axle swiveling truck. Here is a view of the the Centipede's gear mesh with the idler and wheelset in extreme opposite positions.  The gear mesh is around 50% of the gear's width.   And you'll also notice that the right sideframe plate is not fully seated against the  gear case posts. Once it is seated, there will be slightly less wheelset side play.

[drbnc]

My reply, agreed on getting on with life!

"Thanks for responding. Based on your explanation the gear train doesn't appear out of spec, and since I don't run anything smaller than a 13 3/4" radius, I'll proceed to run them as EMD intended!  They do sound great, BEMF is awesome as usual, they are just missing a few oz. (decoder, I know). 

"The 'jackhammer' sound from my F7 may have been due to the gear tower not meshing properly with the worm drive.  Startling, to say the least, especially fresh out of the box.  Motor running, just no gear mesh.  If 50% mesh is okay, I will proceed. I did swap the front/rear trucks on that 'A' unit."

My tungsten putty and microwashers are here.  Time to move on and remember the lesson learned:  Kato, Intermountain, FVM and ScaleTrains.

[spookshow]

As far as side play of the axles is concerned, do we really need *THAT* much side play?

Hey, I'll go ahead and cede them their sideplay on the axles - I don't think it's optimal, but I also don't think it's the biggest problem here. My question is, how are they explaining away the fact that the shafts for the secondary gears are free to (and do) slide out the sides of the gearbox? Or that the worm gears can completely lose contact with the worms? I took a look at the trucks on their just-released E6's (the ones that I sent back for non-truck related reasons) and those shafts were nice and tight in the sides of the gearboxes.

-Mark

[thomasjmdavis]

Isn't that why the trucks pivot?

If a curve is too tight to negotiate with an F7, the layout is generally referred to as a "traction" or "logging" layout.

[Point353]

If a curve is too tight to negotiate with an F7, the layout is generally referred to as a "traction" or "logging" layout.

Not quite sure what that has to do with the F7.
The axles shouldn't have to slide around on a 4-wheel truck, that already has the ability to pivot, to let it negotiate curves.

To your comment, would you classify the CNJ Bronx Terminal a a "traction" or "logging" layout?

[wazzou]

To your comment, would you classify the CNJ Bronx Terminal a a "traction" or "logging" layout?

No, but did they switch it with F7's? 

[Point353]

No, but did they switch it with F7's?

The previous comment suggested that any layout with curves of sufficiently tight radius as to exclude the operation of an F7 must be a "traction" or "logging" layout.
The CNJ Bronx Terminal would appear to be neither.

[thomasjmdavis]

Sorry, I must have been a bit too cryptic.  All I meant was that if a manufacturer has to "loosen up" an F7 truck to negotiate a curve (per BLI as quoted earlier in this discussion), the curve would be tighter than any of us would expect an F7 to negotiate. As others have pointed out, other F units out there (Kato, IM) have trucks that have less play in the gears.  It was intended to be humorous, definitely not an insult to anyone modeling Bronx Terminal or any other tight radius situation- or logging modelers or traction modelers.  And. of course, some traction railroads like the South Shore had curves generous enough to handle Little Joes- and later on, SD locomotives.

Bronx Terminal is something we should all have a photo of- it is an answer to "that ain't prototypical...." 

[atsf3751]

I went to a convention a few years ago and a model in progress of the Bronx Terminal in N scale was on display. Most of the trackwork was completed. This one facility would keep you busy for an entire night's operating session.

[w neal]

Is my problem then that I am using NCE with the older firmware? Is that why my Fs are all dead out of the box? Funny, my new Es ran well out of the box. Although my 2 mew C&Os are dead.

[Kentuckian]

My new BLI C&O E8 runs great on my NCE PoweCab. I’m sure it is post 2007, though.

[drbnc]

Is my problem then that I am using NCE with the older firmware? Is that why my Fs are all dead out of the box? Funny, my new Es ran well out of the box. Although my 2 mew C&Os are dead.

Nope, send them back.  The more they get back, the better the chance that they will realize these are (per Spookshow), grade "F".