Author Topic: Which momentum settings to use?  (Read 1311 times)

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soo

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Which momentum settings to use?
« on: June 06, 2018, 10:33:16 PM »
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Now that I have been messing with the prime mover sounds on my ESU lokies... where would be a good place to start with momentum settings?
I am trying to get the model to act like the real thing? I am asking the question wrong? Can I use the " driving characteristics" with the ESU programmer? Default is 80,, messing around with 115.. too much or not enough?

This would be my first time using momentum after all the years running trains.

Thanks for any help.

jdcolombo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2018, 09:56:02 PM »
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How much momentum to program into a decoder is really a matter of personal preference.  Current ESU LokSound Select sound files with Full Throttle features default momentum at 80 because that works fairly well with Drive Hold and Independent Brake.  But for truly prototypical operation, I've found the number should be higher - I've used 120, though these days I've defaulted back to the 80.  The downside to momentum is that it really does take some getting used to - with very high momentum settings, you won't be stopping your train on a dime and a lot of forethought is needed for operations.  Most of my operators hate having much momentum on switchers, but I sometimes make them live with it to slow them down doing switching operations.

This is something you should just play around with until you find settings you like.  Try some really high settings and see what happens, and then go from there.  There is no need to use a LokProgrammer for this - momentum is programmed in CV's 3 and 4 - easy to do it using ops mode (programming on the main), and you can then observe the effect immediately.

John C.

soo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 10:07:39 PM »
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Thanks for the reply John. I will try what you suggested.
Now that you mention that there is some already built it,, I have noticed that while using drive hold with the independent. I am going to try 100 on one loco,, and 120 on another. I will see what I like best.

I think the biggest thing I am looking for is the prime mover ramp up before the unit moves. Would that be achieved by applying the brake, then throttle,, then drive hold? Then release the brake to begin movement?

Thanks again,, Wyatt

soo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 11:00:35 PM »
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Guys I was just reading about how ESU included the run8 and coast options on the ESU loksound select micro,,just have to be mapped to a function. If I figure out how to map,, I just might try those and see what happens.

Any one else use the Run8 and Coast options on their locos?

Cya,
Y-it

carlso

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2018, 11:35:46 AM »
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Wyatt,

Yes, I have 2 Atlas/Kato SD-9's and a GP-30 that have the "Full Throttle" features including what they call "Drive Hold", I think. I believe it is the same as Run8. At any rate,IMHO, this is the best new feature for a sound decoder and am surprised their competitors have not matched the feature. Maybe they have and I am just not aware of it.

There is not much more cool than the drive hold. A train cruising along at a fairly slow speed approaches a 2% grade, turn on f9 and slowly start to increase the throttle and hear it notch up until run8 is reached but yet the train is still slowly climbing the grade. I have done this several times on the club layout with 2 or 3 of the locos mu'd and this feature is a real hit with all watching.

Try it, you will like it,
Carl
Carl Sowell
El Paso, Texas
Southern New Mexico N Scalers, Las Cruces, New Mexico

jdcolombo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2018, 11:57:10 AM »
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I think the biggest thing I am looking for is the prime mover ramp up before the unit moves. Would that be achieved by applying the brake, then throttle,, then drive hold? Then release the brake to begin movement?

Thanks again,, Wyatt

Not quite.  The correct sequence would be this:
1. Activate Drive Hold while engine(s) are stopped.
2. Use throttle knob to ramp up prime mover to whatever notch you want (when leaving the yard, I usually ramp to Notch 3 - two above idle).
3. Release Drive Hold.  If you have a lot of momentum programmed in, once you release Drive Hold the engines will smoothly accelerate until they reach the throttle setting you have set in step 2.

John C.


jdcolombo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2018, 12:25:51 PM »
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Wyatt,

Yes, I have 2 Atlas/Kato SD-9's and a GP-30 that have the "Full Throttle" features including what they call "Drive Hold", I think. I believe it is the same as Run8. At any rate,IMHO, this is the best new feature for a sound decoder and am surprised their competitors have not matched the feature. Maybe they have and I am just not aware of it.

There is not much more cool than the drive hold. A train cruising along at a fairly slow speed approaches a 2% grade, turn on f9 and slowly start to increase the throttle and hear it notch up until run8 is reached but yet the train is still slowly climbing the grade. I have done this several times on the club layout with 2 or 3 of the locos mu'd and this feature is a real hit with all watching.

Try it, you will like it,
Carl

Hi Carl.

Full Throttle files actually come with four separate special controls.  They are Drive Hold, Independent Brake, Run 8 and Coast.  Drive Hold and Run8 aren't the same thing, but you've described the operation of Drive Hold correctly.  When you activate Drive Hold, the speed setting of the engines is "locked" and the throttle controls the prime mover notch sound.  Run 8, on the other hand, doesn't lock the speed (the throttle still controls speed), but rather immediately gives you the Run8 sound.  "Coast" also does not lock speed, but rather ratchets the prime mover sound down to idle.

There are a couple of different ways to employ these tools.  First, let's talk about grades.  You've described the benefits (and operation) of Drive Hold upgrade.  You lock the speed at 10 mph by engaging Drive Hold, ramp up the prime mover to Run8, and watch the train crawl up the grade.  But you can also do this with Run8 - that is, keep your throttle setting at whatever it takes to run 10mph, then engage Run8 and the prime mover will throttle up and stay there, regardless of throttle setting.  On the downhill side, I actually find "Coast" to be more useful than Drive Hold.  Once you crest the grade, engage "Coast" and the dynamics, and use your throttle to slowly increase the train speed (the prototype will speed up downgrade even with the dynamics engaged and the prime mover in idle or Notch 2).  When you reach the bottom of the grade, release "Coast" and now the prime mover will respond normally to throttle position.  The reason that Drive Hold is less useful downgrade is that once you crest the grade, you want to drop the prime mover to idle and engage the dynamics - but you also want the train to accelerate just a bit.  If you use Drive Hold to drop the prime mover into idle, there's no way to slowly increase the train speed.  So for grades, I actually find Run8 and Coast more useful than Drive Hold, but YMMV.

But Drive Hold is the key for realistic yard (and switching) ops.  You have a heavy loaded train in the yard.  With the engines stopped, engage Drive Hold and throttle up the prime mover.  Release Drive Hold, and with enough momentum programmed in, the engine(s) will then smoothly accelerate to whatever throttle position you have set to throttle up the prime mover.  Very realistic.  And when entering the yard with that heavy loaded train, you can use Drive Hold to throttle down the engine to idle, then release Drive Hold and watch the train slowly come to a stop (assisted, if need be, with the Independent Brake).  The same process can be used with switching moves: activate drive hold, throttle the switcher up to Notch 2, release DH, and the engine will accelerate; to drop a setout, engage drive hold, drop the engine to idle, release DH, and use the independent brake to bring the engine to a stop.  Coast is also sometimes useful to keep the prime mover from throttling up when running engines light (I think maybe the prototype uses Run2, instead of idle, when running light, but I'm not sure, and anyway I like the effect of coast on light moves).  These effects, however, require VERY high levels of momentum and sometimes also are best with a non-linear speed curve where the first 25% of speed is stretched out over 50% of the throttle.  It really depends a lot on the engine's motor response, which varies (a Kato is nothing like a FVM on motor response and top speed).

But again, really this all is best done by personal preference.  Play around with Drive Hold and the Independent Brake at various momentum settings; try both Run8 and Coast on grades and see if you like that better than Drive Hold.  All these things are meant to enhance the experience, so find what works best for you.

John C.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 12:32:20 PM by jdcolombo »

jdcolombo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2018, 12:44:45 PM »
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BTW, I always remap my function keys for these features.  By default, Drive Hold is F9 and Independent Brake is F10.  Run8 and Coast usually aren't mapped at all.  Since most throttles have difficulties accessing functions above F9, I ended up with the following template:

F4 - Drive Hold
F5 - Independent Brake
F6 - Run 8
F7 - Coast
F9 - Dynamics

Of course, the NKP didn't have any engines with dynamics, so I never use F9 at home, and since my home layout is completely flat, Run8 and Coast don't get much of a workout either :).  But I do play around a lot with Drive Hold and Independent Brake for yard and switching ops.  Haven't sprung any of this on my operating crew yet, though - it's fun to play around with when it's just me, but I'm not yet ready to dump this on operators who only visit the layout once every couple of months!

John C.

davefoxx

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2018, 10:28:33 PM »
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@jdcolombo,

What am I doing wrong?  I tried remapping Drive Hold to F4 on my NCE ProCab, and it's not working.  I first changed CV32 to 2 and then CV349 to 2.  Nada.  Am I missing something?  And what are the CVs for Run8 and Coast?

EDIT: I changed CV3 and CV4 to a setting of 100, and acceleration and braking rate, respectively, adjusted nicely.  Much better when I come out of Drive Hold; the locomotive doesn't lurch, if the settings don't match.

DFF
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 10:35:14 PM by davefoxx »

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jdcolombo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2018, 10:48:48 PM »
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Hi Dave.

I never try to map function keys using raw CV programming - I always use either the LokProgrammer or JMRI to do this.  But I think you changed the wrong CV.  I think you should have changed CV350.  CV 349 is a logic function, not a sound slot.  I think the change you made assigned the "notch up" function to F4, not Drive Hold.

Set CV31=16, CV32=2, then clear CV349 by setting it to zero.  Then set CV350=2.  If I'm reading the programming table correctly, that should do it.

BUT . . . you'd be a LOT better off using JMRI or a LokProgrammer.  Plus I vaguely recall reading somewhere that NCE Power Pro command stations can't access CV's above 256 using the programming track (although I THINK that you can do it using ops mode programming).

Run8 is Sound Slot 20, and Coast is Sound Slot 21.  If you wanted to map Run8 to F6, you'd set CV32=2, then CV384 = 8.  But you'd also need to clear whatever programming is already on F6, and I have no idea what that might be (it depends on the sound file - often F6 is assigned to ditch lights).

If you absolutely do not have access to JMRI or a LokProgrammer, then in theory the CV sequence I set out above SHOULD correctly map Drive Hold, but proceed at your own risk.  Using raw CV programming to do things like this on a LokSound is not recommended.  You're playing with fire trying to do this manually.

John C.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 11:01:36 PM by jdcolombo »

davefoxx

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2018, 11:01:07 PM »
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Thanks, but that didn't work, despite programming on the main.  Unfortunately, I have had no success getting a serial cable to work, so I am still unable to run JMRI.  And, I don't have a LokProgrammer, although I heard they aren't compatible with a Mac anyway (I hope I'm wrong).   :(

DFF

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jdcolombo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 11:04:29 PM »
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Thanks, but that didn't work, despite programming on the main.  Unfortunately, I have had no success getting a serial cable to work, so I am still unable to run JMRI.  And, I don't have a LokProgrammer, although I heard they aren't compatible with a Mac anyway (I hope I'm wrong).   :(

DFF

What sound file are you working with?

You are correct that the LokProgrammer software won't run on Mac OS.  It's Windows only.  But JMRI should work.  I think there's a driver you have to install for the Mac; I did this for a friend a few months ago, but now I forget what it is I had to do - I know I had to install a special USB driver for it to work.

John C.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 11:09:34 PM by jdcolombo »

davefoxx

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 11:05:34 PM »
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How do you clear the programming on a function key?  E.g., the F6 button is ditch lights on my MP15DC, but my model doesn't have ditch lights and doesn't need that function.

DFF

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davefoxx

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 11:07:38 PM »
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What sound file are you working with?

Sadly, I'm not sure I understand the question.  I want to borrow the mapping that you have created for F4, F5, F6, F7, and F9, but, at this point I'm only trying to map Drive Hold to F4.  Does that answer the question?

DFF

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jdcolombo

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Re: Which momentum settings to use?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2018, 11:12:50 PM »
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OK.  Let me start over.

Tell me what LOCOMOTIVE you have that you are trying to program, and if this locomotive has a factory-installed LokSound or if you installed it yourself.  And we probably should move this conversation to private e-mail.  E-mail me at jdcolombo at gmail and I'll see if I can help you through this.

John C.