Why I don't care for separate factory-applied grabs

[u18b]

I guess I'm in the middle of the road... like a few of you others.

I see Pete's point.

But I also like the innovation.

And I'm with Mark-- the different color cast handrailing is much more distracting than the grabs.   I don't own that model in the photo (I generally don't model Dark Future CSX).   But if I did...... I'd probably have to remove the handrails, air erase them (sand blast them to roughen them up), and then paint them a better color.

So I'm in the middle.  What bugs me more is when a manufacturer just flat out get's a paint scheme wrong.
And as a CSX modeler...... that has happened almost 50% of the time depending on the manufacturer- although it seems to be getting better (my perspective is covering about 25+ years- it's astounding to me how often CSX schemes got messed up).

[ednadolski]

I'd probably have to remove the handrails, air erase them (sand blast them to roughen them up), and then paint them a better color.

I dont have an air eraser but I found this works pretty well instead:  https://www.amazon.com/Dupli-Color-CP199-Adhesion-Promoter-Primer/dp/B0007UAXJQ

I think it chemically etches the surface so it does not actually add a layer of paint.  And one can goes a long way

Ed

[thomasjmdavis]

Besides...the line is called "Rivet counter." I'm sure they know their demographic haha!

Perhaps they did not recognize that above the rivet counter is the rare "rivet measurer".

This particular model is outside my own timeframe, so my interest is academic.  But if it were a GP-7 and they were charging "rivet counter" prices, I would not only be counting them, but would expect the heads to be the correct diameter.

[Jbub]

I believe they've stated that the operator class is for those who want something less expensive and don't mind less detail it's also for those who like to add their own detail. I'm not sure why they don't do operator in N

[mcjaco]

Ok guys let’s move on.

This thread is a good example of the signal to noise ratio I brought up a few weeks ago in the Crew Lounge. 

I miss the down vote.

[peteski]

This thread is a good example of the signal to noise ratio I brought up a few weeks ago in the Crew Lounge. 

I miss the down vote.

Sorry about the noise (at least in your opinion). Maybe I should have started this thread in the Lounge section where noise is tolerated and even welcome. 

However, to continue the noise, here is the info I promised earlier.  I don't have the exact loco I started this thread on (I only used it as an example). Instead, I measured my Big Blow Turbine model.


I created my own N scale ruler with 1" resolution. .The slightly uneven markings are due to resolution limitations of my Alps printer. It is placed against the NZT steel ruler to show that it is accurate.

Next I measured few grabs which were easiest to photograph.





These are on the back side of the loco and show that the sit about 6" away from the surface.






This is the one under the front door.  It sits about 8" off from the body.



The "eyebrow" handrails are the worst. You can see for yourself.


So yes, I admit that my initial statement was an exaggeration, but if the 1:1 grabs are spaced 4" off the body, those handrails could be installed closer to the body.  I think my excuse is that seeing all the molded-in grabs my brain adjusted to those as looking normal.  That is my excuse and I'm sticking with it. Plus as proven, the free-standing grabs are installed (at the factory) too far off the body surface.  Just as we can pick up on a difference between the N scale  33" and 36" wheels (at least I usually can), if a free-standing grab is sitting too far off the body my eye picks that up.

I guess that is all I can say about this - I spoke my piece and proved my point.

[tom mann]

This thread is a good example of the signal to noise ratio I brought up a few weeks ago in the Crew Lounge. 

I disagree - this is on topic and results in something actionable (i.e., consider using a thinner template) for Shane. The result would make for a nicer model.

Now this still has a chance to go off-the-rails and result in warnings and bad blood, but so far so good.

[Chris333]

And since the model grabs are much thicker than real ones they should sit inward a hair more to make up for the thickness.

Again if they can install those at the factory surely they can install them correctly.

[ek2000]

This thread is a good example of the signal to noise ratio I brought up a few weeks ago in the Crew Lounge. 

I miss the down vote.

Reading your statement above is when I definitely miss the down vote.

[Mark5]

I agree with Pete on the "grabs sticking out factor"

Mark

[wazzou]

Reading your statement above is when I definitely miss the down vote.

Preach

[tom mann]

Ok let’s just stick to the original topic please!

[learmoia]

So has anyone actually taken a tape measure to a 1:1 grab iron..

~Ian

[ednadolski]

Glad to see those measurements.  I think we can agree that it demonstrates the importance of accuracy for making a valid critique, and that undue exaggerations only muddy the point.

It wouldn't hurt to install the grabs a bit closer, tho precisely how much is subjective since this is all about oversized parts in the first place.  The options would be either to move the existing ones, or get the 'operator' level version and install them yourself at whatever distance looks best to you.   (Aside - at least with the wire grabs you have the option.  With cast-on grabs the only thing you can do is shave them off and then strip/repaint the model.)

seeing all the molded-in grabs my brain adjusted to those as looking normal.

As I mentioned previously, it's about the perception.


Now, nits over standoff depth aside,  I still believe that ST did a remarkable job overall with this model and deserve kudos.  By contrast, look what you get if you drop $350 or more on an N scale brass diesel:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3yYAAOSwrslaWldd/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0JQAAOSwNMVaWldn/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/pDwAAOSweLBaWldY/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/js8AAOSwCMtaWldv/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xiUAAOSwJc9aXk2A/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xGQAAOSwqaJaXk2D/s-l1600.jpg

IMHO no contest, give me the ST model any day.


(BTW that little scale ruler is pretty nifty.   Not sure if I could see it in-person tho.  )

Ed

[peteski]

Glad to see those measurements.  I think we can agree that it demonstrates the importance of accuracy for making a valid critique, and that undue exaggerations only muddy the point.

It wouldn't hurt to install the grabs a bit closer, tho precisely how much is subjective since this is all about oversized parts in the first place.  The options would be either to move the existing ones, or get the 'operator' level version and install them yourself at whatever distance looks best to you.   (Aside - at least with the wire grabs you have the option.  With cast-on grabs the only thing you can do is shave them off and then strip/repaint the model.)

As I mentioned previously, it's about the perception.


Now, nits over standoff depth aside,  I still believe that ST did a remarkable job overall with this model and deserve kudos.  By contrast, look what you get if you drop $350 or more on an N scale brass diesel:

IMHO no contest, give me the ST model any day.

(BTW that little scale ruler is pretty nifty.   Not sure if I could see it in-person tho.  )

Ed

Yes, it is all about the perception - I agree 100%. And of course since we are all individuals, we all have slightly different perception. 

I also agree that many of the higher-end N scale plastic models have surpassed the quality and fidelity of brass models. That brass model you showed looks very toyish. While its handrail looks thin, the stanchions are very bulky (probably thicker than many contemporary plastic stanchions). The grabs seem to be too close to the body (touching it?) and they look too thick.

The handrails on the ST river counter models are much closer to scale than that brass model. But when I spend $500 for the UP Big Blow set, I would like the grabs to be correctly installed.   I'll fix them one of these days . . . maybe. That set of locos also needs more rework than just the grabs (to bring them to the "peteski standard". 

If you have good eyesight, you can see the division on my little ruler. I actually created it a while ago to demonstrate the wide board gaps in Rapido Meat Reefers.  I might still do that someday (even though that ship has sailed).