The Olympian Hiawatha has arrived...

[skytop35]

Milwaukee Road shops built Olympian cars (Coaches and Mount series cars) did not have doors in the non vestibule car end bulkhead. A lot of cars built by the Milwaukee shops were unique in that you first stepped into the the car at the non vestibule end and the door to enter the car was immediately to your left. So looking at the non vestibule car end head on, you did not see a door but rather a blank wall just inside the car.

Kato missed the end door on the non vestibule end of the Lake Sleeper though. This was a Pullman Standard built car and should have an end door in the bulkhead at the non vestibule end.

Both ends of the Kato baggage dorm has end doors but the door on the dorm end (non baggage section) should be a streamlined door with porthole window as seen on one end of the diner. 

[OldEastRR]

But the end doors are modeled and have been modeled, on all their passenger cars since the initial release of the US-prototype passenger cars (the smoothside  cars), but only on on end.  The coach, sleeper and dome cars have the end door modeled closed one one end and open on the other.  Not sure if the ventilation theory applies here. None of the windows in the modeled end doors have "glass" in them. To me that is not a big deal (and easily fixed if someone cares to), but the open end doors are puzzling to me.

It's easy to check this yourself; no need to even take off the shell. Look through the "open" doorway of the KATO car and you will see the mounting for the lighting element. If your cars are lighted, just power them up. The RPOs and baggage cars have closed doors; the only non-baggage cars I know of with solid end doors are the BL double-diners. I don't have any of the SP articulateds, but their doors might be closed at both ends of each car in the set too. I'm sticking with the venting hot light bulbs theory. However, the RPOs and baggage cars can be equipped with lighting sets, too.

[nkalanaga]

Most of the cars I've ridden on, which I will admit aren't many, had the door between the vestibule and the interior closed.  If the car was at the end of the train, there was usually a gate to close the diaphragm opening, so people couldn't fall out. 

On some of the New River fall excursions, in the 80s, these doors didn't always stay closed, but that was because the trains were run with museum pieces - literally.  Any usable car that could be scraped up was used, most steam heated, and in some cases the power was also unusual.  Everything met FRA standards, but sometimes that was all that could be said for it.  It made for some fun trains, if you weren't expecting luxury.

They derailed the steam engine in Hinton once, and had to pull the train back to Huntington with a pair of GP7/9s.  No steam, so it was a little chilly on the way back!  Another trip, they actually lost the last car, as the coupler fell out between Charleston and Huntington, in the dark.  They backed up, picked up the passengers, and continued.  Whether they chained the car to the train, or had another crew retrieve it, I don't know.

By the 90s Amtrak was running the trains, and all cars had to meet their standards.  The public was much happier, railfans less so.

[peteski]

And here I thought we were discussing the end doors (not the vestibule doors inside the car. I don't think Kato ever modeled that feature (at lest not intentionally).

[nkalanaga]

Most of the streamlined cars I remember didn't have exterior end doors on the vestibule ends, just gates to close the opening. 

[peteski]

Most of the streamlined cars I remember didn't have exterior end doors on the vestibule ends, just gates to close the opening.

I didn't realize that this was normal. I always thought that the end doors would be present on both ends (like they are on the Amfleet cars or on European passenger cars I'm familiar with).

[nkalanaga]

I'd never thought about it, but the European cars do have exterior doors at both ends, don't they?  Looking at the RhB cars, I can see them.  Never paid any attention.

Do the European cars have doors between the seating area and the vestibules?  Or are the vestibules part of the seating area?  I believe the RhB cars have interior walls and doors, but that's one Swiss narrow gauge, not a Europe-wide standard.

[peteski]

I'd never thought about it, but the European cars do have exterior doors at both ends, don't they?  Looking at the RhB cars, I can see them.  Never paid any attention.

Do the European cars have doors between the seating area and the vestibules?  Or are the vestibules part of the seating area?  I believe the RhB cars have interior walls and doors, but that's one Swiss narrow gauge, not a Europe-wide standard.

It's been a while since I rode one of those trains. I'm pretty sure that there is also a door between the searing and the vestibule.  I don't even remember if Amfleets have the internal door (and I rode those later than the European trains).  And those have end doors on both sides.

This Belgian coach has them.

[Angus Shops]

I believe that the vestibule portion of most North American passenger cars is not really part of the structural body of the car. If you think of the old open platform cars of the late 1800's and then imagine the platform being enclosed to create the vestibule you get an idea of the way these cars developed over time. The structural end of the car (at the vestibule end) is at the wall with the big heavy door that admits you to the interior of the car. The vestibule is more like an enclosed porch. That's why, on Via Rails Budd cars anyway, there are still signs in the vestibules advising that passengers are not permitted to ride in these spaces; in the event of an accident these spaces are not safe places to be.
European cars and more modern NA cars may be a little different; the "vestibule" doors are more like side doors directly into the structural body of the car.

Geoff

[nkalanaga]

Geoff: I can remember photos and drawings of early "narrow vestibule" cars, and that's exactly what they were, open platform cars with the area between the steps closed in, and diaphragms added.  Many cabooses were the same way, with the platforms not part of the main structure.

I believe that, by the time streamlined cars came along, the vestibules were part of the main structure, with collision posts flanking the end passage.  But the interior design had already been set, so the door remained where it had been. That also may have helped with heating in the winter, because the vestibules were not sealed, and it would have taken a lot more steam to try to heat them.