Original Con-Cor PA-1 Motor

[Mark5]

Thanks and yes, Kato/Sekisui made all versions of the Con-Cor PA-1 until Con-Cor separated from Kato in the late seventies and then had the PA-1 made in China.

Doug

Doug, I thought the Concor-Kato connection lasted into the mid 80s, what with the Rivarossi E8 shells riding on Kato made chassis - I seem to recall they did these Frankenstein things with the Rivarossi "SW1500" and Atlas E7 shells as well. Wasn't the first run of the S-2 Northern also done by Kato?

Mark

[Doug G.]

Doug, I thought the Concor-Kato connection lasted into the mid 80s, what with the Rivarossi E8 shells riding on Kato made chassis - I seem to recall they did these Frankenstein things with the Rivarossi "SW1500" and Atlas E7 shells as well. Wasn't the first run of the S-2 Northern also done by Kato?

Mark

Hi Mark, you are correct and I corrected my other post.

Doug

[trainutz]

Doug, would the CC E unit chassis have the same motor as the PA? I have several E units collecting dust in my basement(might even have some Alcos about - I'll look).

[Doug G.]

Thank you very much for looking. I don't think any other CC loco had the early long motor in them like in my picture and CC changed the PA-1 to the shorter, squarer motor sometime in the seventies and I assume the E units probably have those in them. The DL-109 which was released sometime in the early eighties, always had the newer motor in them too.

Doug

[Doug G.]

Coincidentally, I just was on eBay searching "N scale motor" and there were a couple of E8 motor/shaft/gear assemblies on there and they indeed have the later, squarer, shorter, motor.

Doug

[trainutz]

I found my stash of CC chassis. It turns out I have 3 CC Alco PA chassis. I have no recollection of when I acquired them, but they are old...I am willing to part with one.

[Doug G.]

The earliest chassis, which my recent purchase has, has a top cover with four vertical screws holding it on. The motor fits into a pit in the block of metal below the cover and drives the two cup gears which have worms on the ends. You can see the motor brush holders in the hole at the top of the cover.

The original version didn't have the plastic fuel tank cover which snaps between the chassis and shell. The metal chassis just had protrusions in the metal, itself, to snap into the shell.

If you think you may have one of the earliest chassis, I would definitely be interested in buying it from you. Thanks ever so much for your efforts.

I should add that I really just need the motor but I would buy the whole chassis to get it.

Doug

[nkalanaga]

The earliest chassis I saw also had an unusual pickup method, with two metal plates screwed to the bottom of the main casting, and a plastic sheet insulator between the plates and the casting.  One plate was attached with metal screws, the other with plastic screws, and the motor was powered from the main casting and the insulated plate.  I've never seen another model quite like that one.

[peteski]

The earliest chassis I saw also had an unusual pickup method, with two metal plates screwed to the bottom of the main casting, and a plastic sheet insulator between the plates and the casting.  One plate was attached with metal screws, the other with plastic screws, and the motor was powered from the main casting and the insulated plate.  I've never seen another model quite like that one.

That sounds similar to the method used on Arnold locos (like the GP7/9 and mane European locos).  Minitrix used a similar method too except there was just the chassis-to-metal-truck-gearcase electrical connection and a single insulated plate with a wiper on the truck.

[Doug G.]

The earliest chassis I saw also had an unusual pickup method, with two metal plates screwed to the bottom of the main casting, and a plastic sheet insulator between the plates and the casting.  One plate was attached with metal screws, the other with plastic screws, and the motor was powered from the main casting and the insulated plate.  I've never seen another model quite like that one.

Yup, exactly as you describe!

Doug

[Doug G.]

That sounds similar to the method used on Arnold locos (like the GP7/9 and mane European locos).  Minitrix used a similar method too except there was just the chassis-to-metal-truck-gearcase electrical connection and a single insulated plate with a wiper on the truck.

I only recently found out Rapido used cup gears in some locos. I have never had a Rapido so that explains why I never knew the chassis.

Doug

[Doug G.]

The earliest version of the PA-1 chassis is extremely easy to service. Just remove the top plate and the motor, cup gears/shafts/worm lift right out. No wires or anything else keeping the motor in there. Remove the two bottom plates and the trucks drop out.

Excellently engineered.

Doug

[nkalanaga]

The pickup for the earliest PA-1 was very similar to the later split-frame Atlas/Kato models, with the frame riding on the top of the truck frames/gearboxes.  The difference was that the PA-1 frame was a solid piece, with the two plates making the actual contact.  I believe that some of the later PAs actually had split frames, but never had any experience with them. 

Neither the BN nor its predecessors ever owned a PA, and both the NP and GN used Fs on their main passenger trains, so all I really needed was the Minitrix F units.  They worked fine for both freight and passenger service, and if I wanted a newer loco, the U28C was available already painted for NP.  It was really too large for my early layouts, though, so the Fs ran everything.

[Doug G.]

I think the latest Kato PA-1s have the typical split frames of most modern diesels. I don't have one so I'm not certain but I can't see why they wouldn't.

The second version of the Con-Cor PA has two lower pieces which ride on the trucks, similar to the first version but they are thicker. There are copper wipers mounted in the trucks for improved electrical pickup (although when I got my first version, it had no problem with that).

The shorter, squarer motor fits up into a single block of alloy with the cup gears and worms and this chassis piece is screwed to the two lower pieces, with a plastic separator between them, with metal screws on one side and plastic screws on the other. The brush holders are visible on the sides of the chassis on this version. It's not as easy to work on as the first version but still not too bad.

Both versions had a relatively thick grease in the cup gears and this kept the hashy gear noise to a minimum. My second version just had a kind of humming noise when I got it back in the eighties but when I took it apart and cleaned all the lube out and relubed with a light grease, it had that hashy noise I hate and I tried different things and finally realized what it was. I put automotive wheel bearing grease in there and it was relatively quiet again.

Doug

[Doug G.]

In the meantime, I think I found why the original PA's are fairly noisy. The shafts/cup gears/worm bearings are all pretty loose in the chassis, even though the chassis parts are keeping them in place, and the shafts have a lot of end play so all those parts are bouncing around while being driven.

I am going to try shims and washers to see if I can reduce the noise.

Doug