Original Con-Cor PA-1 Motor

[Doug G.]

I know this is a long shot but does anybody have one of the original Con-Cor PA-1 motors they would sell or know where I might find one?

This is the long one with brass gears on each end and drops down into the main chassis instead of fitting into the upper part of the chassis as on the later version.

Thanks,
Doug

[mecgp7]

Doug,
Do you have a pic of what you need?
Clint

[mmagliaro]

Doug,
Do you have a pic of what you need?
Clint

I was about to ask the same question.  I don't know what the motor in the very 1st run PA1's looked like, but if it's
the same one they used in the J3A 4-6-4 later on, I might have something for you.
A picture would really help.

[Doug G.]

Here it is. It is about 1 11/16" from the end of one gear to the end of the other. These are the motors in the first release of the PA-1's in 1967.

I don't think the J3a motor was as long, was it? Similar type ,though.

Doug

[Santa Fe Guy]

Wow I remember those mine used to burn up after not much running. The locos looked okay for the time however, if you could just run them.
Hope you can find one or even a more modern unit that will last.
Rod.

[mmagliaro]

Doug,
No, the Hudson J3a motors are nothing like that.  Well, if nobody has an old-stock exact replacement, it will be time to give us the other measurements of that thing and go for a similar-sized replacement.  It should not be too hard.  That's a big motor.  If it's got 1.5mm shafts, then
the pinion gears can be pressed off and put on another motor without too much bother.

1-11/16" is about 43 mm.  Scaling from your photo I get 35mm for the length of the actual motor body itself, and 12mm top to bottom.

[Doug G.]

Thanks, you guys. What happened is I recently bought this off eBay and it ran fine but me being me, thought the motor looked a little dirty so I cleaned it up. I evidently didn't notice that the windings were a little loose in a couple of places and when I ran it after cleaning, the windings got flung out and hit the pole pieces and shorted and burnt through.

Back 20 years ago, I would have thought nothing of it because I had access to a real good microscope and I used to repair N scale motors all the time, even rewinding them. I don't have a microscope now, although I have thought of buying one but I thought I'd give replacing it a try first.

If all else fails, I can try to get enough magnification to solder in some pieces of wire in there. I'm a little more daunted in my older age, however.

I'll get some more measurements and post them.

Thanks Again,
Doug

[Doug G.]

I think the problem with some of the earliest ones, like this, overheating is, if there's any binding between the brass gears on the motor shaft and the two cup gears with teeth on the inside, it puts too much load on the motor and it overheats just trying to run.

If you can slide the motor back and forth a little through the hole in the cover, after the top retaining plate is attached, it should be OK. If not, something's too tight.

Doug

[peteski]

Interesting. Early Kato Sekisui  locos used a very similar primitive motor, but with worms instead of gears). Seems like the Con-Cor loco was made by Kato.



Model Power also used a similar (but shorter) motor in the F40PH from the '80s. I still have couple of those motors. The have weak magnets and the armatures are wound using very thin wire. Even though those are 5-pole motors, they have very little torque.

Also curios us that the gearing arrangement is probably like the early Arnold rapido GP7 and 9s.  Unusual, but it have a higher gear ration than having the worms directly in the motor shafts.  Good luck with the motor!

[Jim Costello]

The problem we found was binding of the shaft at the plastic/nylon bearings. These bearings were a firm or tight fit in the chassis and as the bearings heated up and with nowhere to go other than to tighten up against the drive shaft.
We took off a slither off the bearing on the outer edge so it fitted neatly in the chassis and had no issues after that with heating or slowing up. The latter was a tell tale sign that something was wrong.
The PA-1 and the Minitrix F7 was my first loco purchases in 1968

Jim
Modelling the NH down under

[nkalanaga]

I never did have much luck with the early PA-1s.  I tried a couple, and just couldn't keep them running.  One ground the teeth out of the inside of the cup gear, the other attracted so much cat hair I couldn't keep the trucks clean.  The Minitrix F7s also had hair issues, but they were easy to clean, without having to take the trucks off the loco, or worrying about the trucks themselves falling to pieces.

I know, they were a favorite of may people, and were considered one of the best running models of the time.  I assume either I got a pair of lemons, or Kato and Gato don't mix...

[Doug G.]

Here are the dimensions.       Max was pretty dang close!:

Length over gears/shaft (the ends of the shaft are flush with the ends of the gears) - 44 mm       

Length over motor alone - 35.8 mm       

Height over brush holders - 16.5 mm

Height w/o holders - 12.6 mm

Width - 13 mm

Shaft diameter - 1.5 mm

Doug

[Doug G.]

The problem we found was binding of the shaft at the plastic/nylon bearings. These bearings were a firm or tight fit in the chassis and as the bearings heated up and with nowhere to go other than to tighten up against the drive shaft.
We took off a slither off the bearing on the outer edge so it fitted neatly in the chassis and had no issues after that with heating or slowing up. The latter was a tell tale sign that something was wrong.
The PA-1 and the Minitrix F7 was my first loco purchases in 1968

Jim
Modelling the NH down under

OK thanks Jim, that makes sense too.

Doug

[Doug G.]

Interesting. Early Kato Sekisui  locos used a very similar primitive motor, but with worms instead of gears). Seems like the Con-Cor loco was made by Kato.



Model Power also used a similar (but shorter) motor in the F40PH from the '80s. I still have couple of those motors. The have weak magnets and the armatures are wound using very thin wire. Even though those are 5-pole motors, they have very little torque.

Also curios us that the gearing arrangement is probably like the early Arnold rapido GP7 and 9s.  Unusual, but it have a higher gear ration than having the worms directly in the motor shafts.  Good luck with the motor!

Thanks and yes, Kato/Sekisui made all versions of the Con-Cor PA-1 until Con-Cor separated from Kato in the late eighties (correction from late seventies) and then had the PA-1 made in China.

Doug

[mmagliaro]

I'd have to vote for my go-to Mashima.

They have a 1024 which is just about dead-on 44mm end-to-end over the double shafts and the shafts are 1.5mm.

They used to make a 1224, which is beefier and would be preferable and you wouldn't have to shim it up as much as the 1024 (the 1024 will be loose in your cavity and need something wrapped around it get it to sit correctly).   If you can find one, the 1224 is also about 44mm over the shafts.
This place says they have some http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/341/mashima-m1224/  Not cheap - 26 pounds and shipping from the UK, about $34 + shipping.

Typical Atlas/Kato dual-shaft diesel motors are just a little too short over the shafts so they won't work, which is a pity since they are plentiful and rugged.
EDIT: Although, if you are determined, you could sleeve the shaft on an Atlas motor and extend it with some more 1.5mm shafting.

I also have some Sagami 1225 (12mm diameter round x 25mm long body) with dual 1.5mm shafts that will work.  You may have to trim a little off the end of each shaft with a Dremel, and of course, you'll have to rig up some padding or shims or something to cradle it in place of the old motor, but it ought to fit in there pretty well without too much shimming since your old motor as 12.6mm x 13mm.

If you're interested in one of these, PM me and we can make a deal.  (they are brand new Sagamis in their original NWSL boxes, and they all run).