Humidity vs. Layout - Are You Tracking It?

[sp org div]

Well in sunny socal here where humidity almost never reaches those numbers, I still get that same "crud" on the rails too.
My masonite fascias dont move, but a 300' viaduct with plywood approaches does show slight movement throughout the year (?). 
Mike, I think you just need to come back to your stompin grounds...   
Jeff

[Scottl]

Mike, does the data provide absolute or specific humidity?  RH is temperature dependent, so it may require some interpretation to figure out what your actual humidity is. 

[C855B]

No, just RH.

I am figuring on the humidity sensor yielding just a ballpark number. Ian - it's in the main unit only, the remotes don't sense humidity, just temp and occupancy. There's enough there in terms of relative trends to at least know it has to be addressed. What's not there is a something we can put our finger on for the oxidation threshold. But even if we could, whatever it is will be a factor of the specific alloy, as we've already postulated that Atlas' is different from ME's, and I even have expectations that ME's varies between C55 and C40 and their supplier-du-jour.

For that matter, I have a few sticks of Atlas C80 sitting around for N-Trak projects. Some has been stored forever in some outright moist environments. I ought to check that and see if there's any intel to be gained there.

Mike, I think you just need to come back to your stompin grounds...   

We knew the move out of California was a one-way trip, since we retired based on the rural Midwest cost of living housing. We could maybe afford Daggett. Or Amboy.

[mmagliaro]

I have long suspected that there is something in the Atlas C55 rail metal that just plain makes it require cleaning more than other brands.  I have used Atlas c80, ME 55, and Atlas 55, and by far, I have to clean track more with Atlas 55 than I ever have in my life, and it's the first layout that has had the luxury of living inside in a temperature and humidity controlled spare bedroom. All the other layouts were in desolate attics, dirty basements, or sheds - much worse environments.

One thing that did help was to stop using even ultra-fine sandpaper (like 1000 or higher grit), or bright boys.  I burnished the railheads with a stainless steel plate, just running it over the rails with firm pressure.  I could definitely see under a magnifier that the railheads were "squarer" and very smooth and scratch free after I did that (compared to how they were before).  I do believe that scratches give the rail easy places for oxidation and dirt to collect.

[MichaelWinicki]

There must be some difference in the type of "black crud" that builds on the top of nickel silver rail... With some being less of a hindrance than others.

My layout is in a garage in western New York and we certainly know humidity.  I have no dehumidifier running.  And my conductivity issues are few and far between. 

And yes I can go out there right now, rub a rag over the trackage and it will be black in no time.  But it does not seem to have any negative affect on operation.

Several years ago I started using Joe Fugate's-Mineral Spirit cleaning method which is more a "wet" based method of cleaning the track.  It's worked out great IMO and I rarely have to "run the rag" around.

[peteski]

There must be some difference in the type of "black crud" that builds on the top of nickel silver rail... With some being less of a hindrance than others.

And yes I can go out there right now, rub a rag over the trackage and it will be black in no time.  But it does not seem to have any negative affect on operation.

That is why I asked Mike whether the curd is actually visible on the track (and to take a macro photo).  If the track looks visually clean (metallic) and you rub cloth or paper towel over it, you will see a dark residue. Thus will happen to some degree even with a freshly cleaned track.  The way I see it is that paper and cloth are slightly abrasive and the dark residue is simply metal particles abraded from the track.

[C855B]

No visible crud since the original post, so nothing to take a picture of. One additional data point - the layout had been idle for about three weeks when the problem was noticed. Granted, between layout construction and off-campus commitments long operation gaps are frequent, so it's not necessarily in my cause-and-effect mix.

[sp org div]

That is why I asked Mike whether the curd is actually visible on the track (and to take a macro photo).  If the track looks visually clean (metallic) and you rub cloth or paper towel over it, you will see a dark residue. Thus will happen to some degree even with a freshly cleaned track.  The way I see it is that paper and cloth are slightly abrasive and the dark residue is simply metal particles abraded from the track.

Have you attempted to burnish with a white cotton cloth until it maybe stops picking up altogether? I would try but not home for awhile...
Im thinking that black crud / residue is oxidation (and NiO is an insulator). Theoretically manufacturer's choose different alloy percentages resulting in more or less noticeable oxidation...  Take a bright boy over multiple times until it no longer (appears to) turns black from rubbing it on the track (a clean one.. and keep it clean). Wait a week or two and it will pick up black crud again... that is not just dust that it is now picking up. I gave up on my track cleaning trains if the layout has gone over a month between cleaning, as that stuff does not just wipe off. The alcohol dripping, handi-wipe dragging, and masonite cars seem to just spread it around... then it gets tracked around by the rest of your rolling stock. Grr.  Humidity may very well be a factor for oxide buildup, but n my climate controlled garage (forced air tied to main structure) here in so cal, it is an ongoing problem no different than what Mike is talking about. I have always been tempted to try a "wet" system, but fear the consequences with a good sized layout if it fails...
Jeff

[Chris333]

When you polish metal I don't think there is an end to the black residue.

[peteski]

When you polish metal I don't think there is an end to the black residue.

It seems that my point was missed.

[Chris333]

I just remember polishing aluminium rims back in the day. They would get shiny, but still get black if rubbed.

[sp org div]

Well, I want to say in bygone days I have taken a white cotton shirt soaked in alcohol and got the rails to where nothing black came up anymore... but not home to verify my memory bank at this point.
Burnishing may pick up more black.... but the difference seems to be the metal particles vs the thicker layer of NiO (or whatever combination of crud it is) that we are really talking about.
Jeff

[peteski]

Well, I want to say in bygone days I have taken a white cotton shirt soaked in alcohol and got the rails to where nothing black came up anymore... but not home to verify my memory bank at this point.
Burnishing may pick up more black.... but the difference seems to be the metal particles vs the thicker layer of NiO (or whatever combination of crud it is) that we are really talking about.
Jeff

Hmm... maybe the alcohol acted as lubricant so wet cloth wasn't abrading the meal?  I was describing dry-rubbing.    As far as what the dark residue is, we would probably need a metallurgist or a chemist with some fancy equipment (like a mass spectrometer) to tell us what it is composed of.

[havingfuntoo]

It might worth finding out how much copper is in the composition of the track, Atlas could be using a higher concentration of copper so that their machinery has less wear and their track is more flexible. There could also be other chemicals being liberated into the air from some of the building products and finishes you employ (foam boards, paint, plastics, timber preserves, ect) that become more concentrated in the basement confinement due to lack of flow through ventilation ..... just having a stab in the dark ...... there are so many variables to consider.

Being a black crud I would be looking toward a copper based corrosion. Take some vinegar on a piece of paper towel and GENTLY wipe it along a short piece of track, wait for about 30 seconds and do it again and see what happens. If it seams to be dissolving the crud then I think, not 100% certain, you are looking at a copper based oxide. The crud will seem to be a little greasy (rather than the a dry like rust on steel).       

[learmoia]

No, just RH.

I am figuring on the humidity sensor yielding just a ballpark number. Ian - it's in the main unit only, the remotes don't sense humidity, just temp and occupancy. There's enough there in terms of relative trends to at least know it has to be addressed. What's not there is a something we can put our finger on for the oxidation threshold. But even if we could, whatever it is will be a factor of the specific alloy, as we've already postulated that Atlas' is different from ME's, and I even have expectations that ME's varies between C55 and C40 and their supplier-du-jour.

For that matter, I have a few sticks of Atlas C80 sitting around for N-Trak projects. Some has been stored forever in some outright moist environments. I ought to check that and see if there's any intel to be gained there.

We knew the move out of California was a one-way trip, since we retired based on the rural Midwest cost of living housing. We could maybe afford Daggett. Or Amboy.

Have you compared the Ecobee humidity sensor against anything else... I just ran a test with my Ecobee and 2 Acurite temp/humidity sensors..

Ecobee is 68deg 62% humidity..
Acu1 is 75deg 48%
Acu2 is 72deg 52%..

And all 3 are within 2 feet of each other.. one is on a shelf on the opposite side of the hall (same height.). and the other is just above the Ecobee..

..I'm tending to believe the Acurites over the Ecobee on both accounts.. as it 'feels' hotter than 68 deg.. and It's Hard to believe humidity is that high.. as dry as it is right now..

The point is.. your data may be 10 points higher than it really is..

~Ian