Peoria and Eastern oval herald

[brokemoto]

Is anyone out there aware of the existence of an oval Peoria and Eastern herald?  I do not mean the comet herald, which is out there, but there is also an oval herald.  An example of it is on pages 123 and 209 of the Edson/Vail book.  The former is a photograph of a passenger GP-7 (DRSP-4d), #5625, the latter a paint and lettering diagram for a freight(DRS-4c), #5612.

I ask because with a minimum of work, the B-mann NYCS GP-7 would be ideal for a P&E unit.  The stripes and SYSTEM lettering is there.  All that would be necessary would be to erase the road number on the cab, cover with the oval P&E herald, then put the larger road numbers on the short hood.  The larger numbers might come from another Microscale sheet or even an HO sheet, depending on which sheet.


Is anyone aware of the existence of this herald in N scale?   

Thank you.

[Bobster]

Brokemoto,

As far as I know nothing exists in the way of decals for the P&E GP-7's.  Microscale decals has some for the passenger cars.  I put a logo up for discussion earlier this year, in April,  in the prototype section.  I'll repost it here for you.

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Happy modeling,
Bobster out

[brokemoto]

Thank you for the reply and the herald.  I will have to read that topic.  I am aware of the Microscale steam locomotive and P&E sublettering for the passenger cars, In fact, I had to use the steam locomotive sheet for the P&LE power that I have.  That B-mann GP-7 flub just BEGS for an erase job on the cab, a P&E herald and the large numbers on the short hood.  P&E GP-7s were black, similar to many of the other NYCS GP-7s (there were some that were grey, and unlike other NYCS power, some of the freight GP-7s were grey and some passenger were black.  All P&E GP-7s, passenger or freight, were black).  P&LE were Pacemaker Green.



EDITORIAL NOTE:  I read the topic on the P&E.  On your Kato USRA heavy 2-8-2, that is NYCS class H-9 and was unique to the P&LE on the NYCS.  In the steam era, P&LE freight power rarely ventured off P&LE rails.  The passenger power did so all the time as did NYCS power venture onto P&LE rails.  It was not uncommon to see Hudsons on the P&LE as well as the various classes of NYCS Pacifics.  The Mohawks rarely ventured onto P&LE rails, though.  Jack Polaritz told me that he thinks he might have seen a Niagara on the P&LE once, but he is not sure.  If it is P&LE, if anyone knows, it is Jack Polaritz.  If Jack Polaritz does not know it about the P&LE, nobody knows it.

After the USRA returned control of the railroads to their owners, the P&LE modified the H-9s  There was a tender swap between the underachieving H-8s and the H-9s.  The H-8 tender was larger and had six axles.  In addition, the compressors were moved to the pilot deck and shielded.  There were some other alterations, but the main alterations were these two.  P&LE equipped two of the P-Mickey locomotives with steam lines and signalling devices to allow them to work passenger trains.  Supposedly, the railroad did this so that they could pull crew shuttles, but I suspect that more than once an H-9 pulled a commuter train when no Pacific was available (the 2-8-2 would have been better suited to a commuter train than a Hudson).   In N scale, the LL Berkshire tender is pretty close to the H-8 tender.  You could use the RR large tender, as well, but you would have to make the trucks all wheels live.  One thing to remember is that uncharacteristic of P&LE steam, the coal boards on the H-9s did not have the P&LE or P-Mickey sublettering.  The Kato comes with Central Gothic on the USRA standard tender and Railroad Roman on the cab.  By the time of Central Gothic, all of the H-9s had their tenders swapped.  Even with the larger tenders, never have I seen a photograph of any P&LE steam with Railroad Roman on the cab and Central Gothic on the tender.

NYCS did have USRA light 2-8-2s, class H-6.  The T&OC, MC, LS&MS, LE&W and Big Four were the initial recipients, so likely they ran on the P&E on more than one occasion.  If you will swap the stock tender for either a B-mann SPECTRUM or Kato USRA standard, you will get a really nicely running locomotive.  The creep on those things is even better than that of the Kato.

[Bobster]

Brokemoto,

I know the Kato Mike is a foob for the P&E and unique to the P&LE.   As the P&E is not the main road I model thus I consider my Kato a visitor, fill in power, or a New York Central System test on my layout - even though the real things probably never got close to central Illinois.

Thank you,
Bobster

[Cumbo2000]

I always liked this photo by J. Parker Lamb.

Bob Witt

/https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1642/25944958261_0526441ebd_k.jpg]http://www.railphoto-art.org/collections/lamb/group-two/#!jig[1]/https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1642/25944958261_0526441ebd_k.jpg

[Cumbo2000]

Sorry, the link didn't work as expected.

The photo I referenced is the last one in this group: Group Two.

Bob Witt

[peteski]

All you needed was https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1642/25944958261_0526441ebd_k.jpg

[peteski]

How many sizes of the logo are needed? Just the one that goes under the cab windows of those Geeps?

[brokemoto]

How many sizes of the logo are needed? Just the one that goes under the cab windows of those Geeps?

The SWs that P&E owned also had them, even into Penn Central. 

Likely one would work, as I am guessing that there is not that much difference in cab size between the SW and the GP-7.   I am just too lazy right now to run upstairs and see what the difference in cab size is.  When I go upstairs to get my tickets for the Nationals game to-day, if I can remember, I will compare the cab sizes.

Off the top of my head, I can not think of any diseasels that the P&E had, other than the GP-7s or SWs.   If I had the time, I suppose that I could thumb through the Edson/Vail book and see.  The Edson/Vail book does have the paint and lettering diagram for the P&E GP-7s.

I can not recall seeing a photograph of any P&E rolling stock with that herald.  The rolling stock that I have seen has a comet herald on it, which is available as a dry transfer.  The Freight Yard or the Rail Yard or whatever that LA train store is/was used to sell them.

Nice photograph.  I assume that the GM&O passenger train is stopped at a station and the P&E freight is scurrying across the diamonds before the passenger train is due to be on its way, again. 

[BOK]

I worked for the P&E in 1970 during the terrible PC days. The P&E men were fiercely, proud of their railroad and hated the PC whichtook most of their engines and they got the "left overs". At one point the PC froze our payroll and we couldn't cash our checks for a couple of months (?). Nope, no love for the PC or for ever modeling it. Keep in mind that the P&E was an independent railroad leased by the CCC&STL (Big Four)/NYC/PC and prior to the PC was considering breaking the lease and going off by themselves. 

I seem to remember that the hearalds were the same size on both the SW and GPs and that they weren't used on other types of equipment like freight cars or cabooses. We generally ran two time freights: PE6 eastbound and PE9 westbound/day between Indianapolis and Peoria  with crew change and pickup/setouts/classification at Urbana, IL. Sometimes they ran an extra but the "hand writting" was on the wall by 70 with many mergers taking away the advantage of the "Peoria Gateway" for bridge traffic and very minimal on line, industries. Today it couldn't have survived as a viable, short line. Pieces of the line are left in Illinois and Indiana used by NS or Amtrak with most of it abandoned.

I too think the Bachmann, NYC, GP will make a good P&E stand in.

Barry

[brokemoto]

Keep in mind that the P&E was an independent railroad leased by the CCC&STL (Big Four)/NYC/PC and prior to the PC was considering breaking the lease and going off by themselves. 

I seem to remember that the hearalds were the same size on both the SW and GPs and that they weren't used on other types of equipment like freight cars or cabooses.

I too think the Bachmann, NYC, GP will make a good P&E stand in.

I forget whether it was policy or some sort of  legislation, but there was something from the Feds that allowed solvent subsidiaries of Penn Central to stay out of CONRAIL.  As P&LE was solvent in the 1970s, it managed to get out of CONRAIL.  Was P&E solvent in the mid-1970s?

I compared the Atlas GP-7 cab to the LL SW cab.  They are about the same, so one herald is all that is necessary.  The above quoted statement from an Original Source, someone who was there,  confirms it.  The photographs that I have seen of the boxcars show a comet herald.  I do not recall if the cabooses had it or any of the other rolling stock, but I have seen it on boxcar red and jade green boxcars.

The Roadname lettering and stripes are there.  Erasing the road number on the cab and covering with an oval P&E herald would be easy.  If the F-unit Microscale set does not have larger road numbers, I would expect that perhaps a freight car set or a larger scale set would work.

[peteski]

I compared the Atlas GP-7 cab to the LL SW cab.  They are about the same, so one herald is all that is necessary.  The above quoted statement from an Original Source, someone who was there,  confirms it.

I can do a white-ink decal. I'll let you know when it is ready (it'll take some time).

[brokemoto]

I can do a white-ink decal. I'll let you know when it is ready (it'll take some time).

THANK YOU!!!!

The prototype is white, so that is what it should be.

If you let me know, I will buy at least three sets.  One for a GP-7, one for an SW and one spare in case I mess up something.  Maybe I should buy another B-mann GP-7.  I could do one passenger, one freight and the SW, so I would have to buy four sets of decals.   I have the other Microscale NYCS sheets, so I should start looking for the numbers.  I have the EMD steam generator stack details.  This would give me one P&LE passenger GP-7, one NYC and one P&E.  Those were the only NYCS subsidiaries where the power had the SYSTEM road name and the sublettering, by the time that the prototype GP-7 appeared.  Yes, there was IHB, but it had a totally different lettering scheme.  B&A, LS&MS, CCC&StL and MC had disappeared by the 1940s.  There was still rolling stock running around with the reporting marks and lettering even into the 1960s, but NYCS had stopped lettering power for its subsidiaries, except for IHB, P&LE and P&E, by that time.

[NYC1956]

NYC subsidiaries Indiana Harbor Belt, Peoria & Eastern and Chicago River & Indiana all had similar rounded logos.
Somewhere I have a decal set with the IHB logo, but I have never seen any of the others commercially produced.
P&E had only EMD locos - GP-7s and SW-7s.
I doubt whether P&E could have survived. They depended on bridge traffic, which by the 1970s, had pretty much dried up. Today most of their trackage has been abandoned and taken up.
Mike

[brokemoto]

Chicago River & Indiana

I had forgotten about that one. 

While I have you, are you the same Mike who many years past asked me about retirement dates for some classes of P&LE diesels?  I seem to recall that I was ill at the time and could not find the issue of Extra 2200 South that had the information.  I saw your reply and noticed that the issue in question is sitting at my left.  Do you still need the information, or did you get it somewhere else?

I find it mildly curious that the heralds on some NYCS subsidiaries persisted into the diesel era, but some, such as the Boston and Albany, were not to be found even on power lettered for it.  P&LE's herald reappeared after it got out of PC, but was not on its steam or diesel power or even on rolling stock while it was under NYC or PC control.  There were some PC heralds on the P&LE rolling stock.  PC "rented" several of P&LE's U-boats and even put the PC herald on them.  When they came back to McKee's Rocks, even though P&LE was still under PC control at the time, the order came down from P&LE Management to take the PC heralds off the power.  P&LE did have Pacemaker Green freight power, though.  The A-2a s left Schenectady painted that way and all of the freight diesels had that color.  That is the only NYCS subsidiary of which I am aware that did not have black painted power.  Of course, I am excepting the passenger units.  Curiously, on the P&LE, the passenger power was standard NYCS grey, except for #5684 and that only for a limited time.  Eventually, P&LE painted it back to grey.